Cataclysm Mechanics Draft

[GeneralHankerchief]

(3) Ducal succession. This is a fairly pressing issue given that Hans is getting on a bit. Factionheir has indicated that he wishes to take Ruppel as his next avatar and make him his successor. I am happy for him to take Ruppel (that's why I adopted the chap) but am leery about allowing players to tie up the position of Duke throughout generations. It does not seem quite fair and also risks making things rather boring.

That's lame, dude.

[TinCow]

So just to make sure I understand this is basically what I do. I pm tincow about what I want to do, without asking any permission at all, so I can go rampaging throughout the Reich and do what ever I want? Also, After I pm you the things I want to do, and then tincow sends me the options I have?

No, you've got that backwards. It won't be practical to send me what you want to do until I make the mega-post for the turn. That post will tell you what the results are from the previous turn, tell you the resources (wealth, etc.) at your disposal, and give you a few basic options that I think are consistent with your situation. After that, you send me a PM with what you want to do. The options I list are simply suggestions to help people think of the various things they can do. They are also useful for people who do not have a whole lot of time on their hands to get involved in this. You will be able to easily get through the entire crisis by doing nothing more than PMing me "C" "B" "X" etc., if that is what you want.

Btw, if we take someone prisoner, can we force them to work on a galley which happens to have an accident? .

Yes, I would consider that an 'execution'. I don't really expect any player to kill another player, but given the routes some people are taking, it is possible that people could commit crimes that are so horrid that keeping them alive wouldn't make sense IC. So, I will allow this, but do not really expect it to occur.

Also, I will consider making exceptions for movement restrictions if people request them. You'll have to give me a good reason why, but I will seriously consider it if it makes sense. I am also considering making an exception for avatar-only and cavalry-only armies. I am thinking that if the path is clear of enemies (AI or HRE) and you take only your avatar, you can move anywhere you want, including overseas. If you take only cavalry, I will probably allow for faster movement than even the game would otherwise permit. I see no reason a cavalry force from Ragusa could not ride to Caen in 1 year.

I've got a question: I didn't read the earlier cataclysm thread entirely, so the main plot would still be a surprise for me. However, it seems this cataclysm is only going to last 10 turns (from 1320 to 1340). So, won't that make it slightly... problematic? Suppose Jan wants to go and conquer Bavaria (for example, I'm not saying he should!). Well, because of the game's mechanisms, getting from Outremer to Rome will take the majority of those 10 turns, no?
What I'm asking is, if the situation requires it, could the cataclysm last longer? I realise it would ask more time investment from TC and econ, but it would be ridiculous to cut a good rebellion short, no?

I would be willing to consider extending the cataclysm for longer under two conditions. (1) It is again authorized by a non-weighted 2/3 vote in 1340. It shouldn't continue going if a large number of people don't want it to. (2) I (or someone else) wants to keep running it. This is probably going to be very time-consuming for me to organize, and I suspect I may simply be exhausted when it is over.

[gibsonsg91921]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As soon as Peter is Prinz, he plans to use his iron fist to restore some manner of order.

[FactionHeir]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As soon as Peter is Prinz, he plans to use his iron fist to restore some manner of order.

In his closet?

TC: Quite interesting proposal regarding cavalry armies. So we get lightning strike forces everywhere unless we build a few forts along the way?

[gibsonsg91921]

In his closet?

hes in jail, he has all the time in the world to do that now

but theres gonna be some arse-kicking once hes loose

[FactionHeir]

You ain't Peter the Merciless for nothing, eh?

Will be interesting to see how Peter will act and change his allegiances if he becomes Prince.

[TinCow]

I have made several changes to the FAQ and marked them in red for ease of viewing. All the changes are things that have been discussed in this thread (which is why I posted in the first place) except for one. I want rebellions to have a legitimate chance of surviving for more than a turn or two, since they seem to be a potential source of a lot of fun for both the rebels and the loyalists. So, I have given them an extra source of Income. It is listed under the Fixed Income section, but I will paste it here for ease of reference:

Provinces that belong to a Count who remains loyal to their Duke will provide 1 income to BOTH the Count and the Duke. Counts that rebel from their Dukes will receive an income of 2 from the province they declare as their 'Capital' for the rest of the Cataclysm, provided that all other requirements for the income are met. Rebel Capitals that are Castle settlements will receive an income of 1; this is the only way that a Castle settlement can produce Fixed Income during the cataclysm. Rebel Capitals cannot be moved during the cataclysm, even if you capital is held by the AI or has fallen under the control of another player; if you care about the extra income, you had better protect it.

[gibsonsg91921]

i got some ideas...

and btw, im actually Peter the Scarred now. but im still 8 dread, merciless conqueror, and etc. im brutally scarred and bastion of health. that is a lot of hit points there.

[FactionHeir]

What happens if a Rebel Capital is lost? Do they get to declare a new one then?

[FactionHeir]

i got some ideas...

and btw, im actually Peter the Scarred now. but im still 8 dread, merciless conqueror, and etc. im brutally scarred and bastion of health. that is a lot of hit points there.

Yeah, autocalc makes the BattleScarred trait crop up very easily. Like +1 for each battle autocalced. And even when losing a battle it never gives you the Coward trait. Wonder how the autocalc reads the traits file really.

[TinCow]

What happens if a Rebel Capital is lost? Do they get to declare a new one then?

Nope, it's still their capital. They have to re-conquer it if they want the extra income back. I will add that to the FAQ.

edit: Rebel Capitals cannot be moved during the cataclysm, even if your capital is held by the AI or has fallen under the control of another player; if you care about the extra income, you had better protect it.

[Ferret]

In that case is it possible to have rebel settlements before declaring a capital? For example if at first you only had a castle but you wanted a city as the capital could you conquer that and make it your capital?

[TinCow]

Sure, I don't see why not.

[gibsonsg91921]

is it possible that lutherans, so inspiring the peasantry, can recruit a quick army of zealous peasants (kinda like crusaders get religious zealots and pilgrims) for catapult ammo?

peters gotta use his newfound star power somehow

[TinCow]

I would say that prominent Lutheran supporters such as Dietrich, Fritz, Peter, and Tancred could certainly attempt to exploit that position. Of course, it's likely to make non-Lutherans in the province angry...

[FactionHeir]

So how do you determine the percentage of Lutherans in a region? As measured in heresy percent? Couldn't this Lutheran recruit peasant ability be abused to cause unrest in a high non Lutheran region?

What do loyalists get btw for being totally outnumbered?

[gibsonsg91921]

they get factionheir, the best general in this game.

[OverKnight]

What do loyalists get btw for being totally outnumbered?

They get Duchies and noble deaths?

[gibsonsg91921]

i am literally afraid of hans. i feel like somehow hes really going to kick my @#$. peter is an inferior commander, maybe i could night attack

[FactionHeir]

Meh, overall Arnold is better because he has dread rather than chiv. (At least my belief is that Dread is better than Chiv due to command giving you a huge morale boost anyway)

Still, Hans is nothing without a decent force that can be replenished and/or fast movement. And he's pretty much alone and with Bavarians, Austrians and rebel Swabians knocking at his door from all directions.

Personally, I think that a conversion/appeal would be a nice ability to make non loyalist troops desert more frequently (and possibly over to the loyalist force rather than being disbanded)

[FactionHeir]

i am literally afraid of hans. i feel like somehow hes really going to kick my @#$. peter is an inferior commander, maybe i could night attack

In either attack or defense, either will have 10 command, so yeah.
If command wasn't limited to 10, then you really should be afraid (especially so if command gave +ability as it did in RTW)

I wouldn't advise a night attack. Hans has max points in night battle (+3, Nocturnal), not that it matters though with command limit

[gibsonsg91921]

yeah, peter reaches ten in a night attack. my strategy is to not be so violent in battles. just to try to restore order. remember, peter is something of a political dynamo, getting the vilnius edict through and all.

[TinCow]

So how do you determine the percentage of Lutherans in a region? As measured in heresy percent? Couldn't this Lutheran recruit peasant ability be abused to cause unrest in a high non Lutheran region?

What do loyalists get btw for being totally outnumbered?

For the first question, I don't know. I'll figure it out if someone tries it.

As for the second, I am going to do my best to make sure everyone starts off relatively equal in power and main focus of the challenges will still be the AI. This is not KOTR Civil War, after all. I see the rebellion options more as a way for people to gain extra strength to fight the AI by backstabbing other players. If a player concentrates exclusively on fighting other HRE players, he will likely lose his provinces to AI attacks.

[OverKnight]

As for Ducal succession, I feel we might need an OOC CA to address this. Not only Swabia, but from the looks of it Franconia, plans to have the same player as Duke over two Avatars. This is, as GH succinctly put it, "lame".

I'm all for avatars being ambitious title hungry bastards, but we shouldn't cross that line in our OOC playing style. Switching off who is Duke provides a fresh perspective and increases fun for more players. Why compete for the Duke's favor if he's just going to pass the Title on to himself as another avatar? (Which might explain the mutinous nature of Swabia and Franconia at the moment).

There should, at least, be a one player gap between reassuming the title of Duke.

[AussieGiant]

As for Ducal succession, I feel we might need an OOC CA to address this. Not only Swabia, but from the looks of it Franconia, plans to have the same player as Duke over two Avatars. This is, as GH succinctly put it, "lame".

I'm all for avatars being ambitious title hungry bastards, but we shouldn't cross that line in our OOC playing style. Switching off who is Duke provides a fresh perspective and increases fun for more players. Why compete for the Duke's favor if he's just going to pass the Title on to himself as another avatar? (Which might explain the mutinous nature of Swabia and Franconia at the moment).

There should, at least, be a one player gap between reassuming the title of Duke.

I agree. It's absolute nonsense to keep the position of Duke OOC: You have to hand it on.

[gibsonsg91921]

why, was stig planning on taking dieter von kassel or whoever is the heir of the day? lol

[econ21]

Also, I will consider making exceptions for movement restrictions if people request them. You'll have to give me a good reason why, but I will seriously consider it if it makes sense. I am also considering making an exception for avatar-only and cavalry-only armies. I am thinking that if the path is clear of enemies (AI or HRE) and you take only your avatar, you can move anywhere you want, including overseas. If you take only cavalry, I will probably allow for faster movement than even the game would otherwise permit. I see no reason a cavalry force from Ragusa could not ride to Caen in 1 year.

I don't have a problem with relaxing movement restrictions when players fight the AI. We will be rigging things a little for the sluggish AI anyway, so helping out players in extremis or for the sake of a good story is fine.

But relaxing movement restrictions will be problematic for any player vs player contests, as it makes it hard for players to know the rules of the game. For example, in the current Hummel vs Hans contest for Swabia, they both can see where their avatars can move and work out how best to claim provinces, bring the enemy to battle etc. I can imagine Ignoramus might be a bit put out if I teleport Hans from Ragusa to Caen at the start of 1314. (I know you are saying he could not bring his army, but still...)

Provinces that belong to a Count who remains loyal to their Duke will provide 1 income to BOTH the Count and the Duke. Counts that rebel from their Dukes will receive an income of 2 from the province they declare as their 'Capital' for the rest of the Cataclysm, provided that all other requirements for the income are met.

I was wondering about just letting the rebels get TWO income per province, like the (combined) loyalists - not just from their capitals. An economy does not double just because the Duke takes a slice. And making it in the short term self interest of the Count to rebel creates a nice tension to the proceedings. Do they stay loyal to get Ducal support and long term intangible benefits or do they rebel to get more stuff for their own armies now?

[gibsonsg91921]

im pretty sure hans, with only his bodyguard, could raise some serious hell.

[FactionHeir]

Not in a MP battle where command, chiv/dread and other traits do not count and bodyguard sizes are even, but against the AI for sure

As for succession, the suggestion was brought forward because none of the other Swabians seem loyal at all, so it would be unlikely that ICly, Hans would consider giving them the title over someone he knows he can trust to run the Duchy.

[gibsonsg91921]

true, but ur still one of the better commanders in this game, i'd say. how many famous battles do you have? i think i should have one, cuz i got a heroic victory against the poles, but idk if the crossed-swords popped up.