LEN, I agree with Brenus that I don't much care whether there was a massacre or a genocide. That is both needless semanticism, and it creates an artificial distinction between the two. Where the former is considered 'normal' collateral damage of war, and the latter an elevated status, highly coveted at that.

Don't really have a point with the above. I do have a question: do you think that it was the policy of Turkey to create an etnically monogenous state? In other words, was, if not necessarily through death, the disappearance of all Armenians from the soil of Turkey a goal?


Quote Originally Posted by Brenus
“how can you blame me doing the unexpected” Err, sorry what unexpected?
I blame you for rejecting responsibilities on others (French, English, USA, all the world).
I don’t know if it was a genocide as a deliberate intent to kill all the Armenians as a people. What I do know is it was massacre and war crimes. And the Turks are guilty of it, and the Armenians are guilty of theirs.
As I said, I never went in details BUT Hitler was referring of the Armenians slaughter, not the Turkish slaughter when asked about the possibility of the Final Solution. This leads me to suppose that it was more violence and systematic killing in one side.

“I had the French, the English, the Italians, the Greeks and the Russians as invaders back in times; as a reminder” You? So YOU invaded a lot a countries my friends, slaughtering, enslaving, pillaging and raping… The Ottoman Empire was the largest and the longest Empire in Europe, Asia and Africa. And it wasn’t nice to be in an Empire at these times…
Can I remind you that England and France (not for the beauty of the Ottoman Empire’s eyes, of course) rescued Turkey in fighting in Crimea?
What happened to Turkey in the aftermath of WW1 is exactly was happened to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the II Reich and somehow Russia. They were the Enemies so they were dismantled... They didn’t had an Atta Turck (sp?), some got a Lenin…
So the song of the poor lonesome Turkey facing the entire world manipulated by the evil Armenian Lobby…

“Briefly, why do you hate us so much?” Because raising a question about the past is Hate?

“ASALA, founded in Beirut fed by the imperialists to make a mess, died off by 1983”: What? Imperialists, whoa… Normally it goes with Yankee and valets…

As a French, my history is full of civil wars (the last one being after WW2, some will say even Algerian war-because the Military Coup), for political, religious, and so-called ethnical reasons. To study them is not an insult or a tragedy. As said somewhere else, the French did their parts in slaughters others nations and themselves.
That is a great post!

Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Johann Hari:

*blahblahblah*
A big 'meh' to Johann Hari here. I'm not impressed. He is right, sure enough, there is a dirty war going on. But for him to present his article with an undertone of breakthrough investigative journalism? Meh. If he had spend twenty minutes on Wikipedia he could've copy-pasted the same article together, with less inaccuracies as a bonus.

I realise that was not the point of your posting it. So yes, fair enough, lots of nations have a hard time facing up to the darker chapters of their own history. Indeed, 'he who is without sin casts the first stone'. The sin not being genocides / mass murders of your own, but the unwillingness to admit them.

(tip: for festering wounds to poke in, try Algeria, or even tired old Vichy. Nobody cares about dark Africa)