Out of character thread XVI

[Ramses II CP]

If it were a PvP battle with those units I think Igno would have to hide behind the walls.

So if he can buy FC Longbowmen is he, in any future pvp siege, going to be able to plant their stakes in a gateway? That'd be quite a surprise for anyone thinking to quickly exploit a breach in a gate.

[econ21]

So if he can buy FC Longbowmen is he, in any future pvp siege, going to be able to plant their stakes in a gateway? That'd be quite a surprise for anyone thinking to quickly exploit a breach in a gate.

It's quite hard for me to handle things like stakes in a PvP battle, so I think I would say no. Also, it sounds rather "gamey". The gates presumably represent - as well as just the doors proper - some makeshift barricades etc that are more impressive than stakes.

[OverKnight]

I'm working on a revision of the Outremer charter for the next Diet Session. The Kingdom is now just two provinces (maybe ) and so it needs to be updated.

I've reviewed the charter but I have a few questions.

1. Jan was granted the county of Hamburg while he was still King? Did he get the +1 influence for this, and is this actually allowable? I thought the King had to temporarily renounce house ties.

2. The duration of the King's term is now one Diet session to another, correct?

3. Crusader Counts can't stack influence anymore from Crusader and regular Counties, correct?

4. Matthias is listed as having 6 influence. 2 is for being King, 1 is for being an ex-Chancellor and 2 is for his stats. Is the sixth for his Bavarian County?

5. Who gives build queues for Outremer Provinces, besides Antioch, not assigned to Counts, the King, the Kaiser, or the respective Dukes? (Acre, the only Ducal Zone left, would be given queues from Warluster?)

Some of this is going to change in my revision, I just want to get a sense of the past before moving on to the future.

[econ21]

Ignoramus is having trouble installing the mod. Can anyone else try to install it and see if they get Flemish pikemen (and odd unit sizes) for Spain in a custom battle? Preferrably a computer savy person like Factionheir. I just want to check the problem is not with the mini-mod.

BTW, uninstallation is easy - just delete the amended export_descr_unit.txt in your data folder and the amended battle_models.modeldb file in your data\unit_models folder. (There are backups of the originals in case you had unpacked and overwrote them.)

Thanks.

[Privateerkev]

I'm working on a revision of the Outremer charter for the next Diet Session. The Kingdom is now just two provinces (maybe ) and so it needs to be updated.

I've reviewed the charter but I have a few questions.

1. Jan was granted the county of Hamburg while he was still King? Did he get the +1 influence for this, and is this actually allowable? I thought King had to temporarily renounce house ties.

2. The duration of the King's term is now one Diet session to another, correct?

3. Crusader Counts can't stack influence anymore from Crusader and regular Counties, correct?

4. Matthias is listed as having 6 influence. 2 is for being King, 1 is for being an ex-Chancellor and 2 is for his stats. Is the sixth for his Bavarian County?

5. Who gives build queues for Outremer Provinces, besides Antioch, not assigned to Counts, the King, the Kaiser, or the respective Dukes? (Acre, the only Ducal Zone left, would be given queues from Warluster?)

Some of this is going to change in my revision, I just want to get a sense of the past before moving on to the future.

1.) Econ told me Jan got the Hamburg bonus. "Renouncing Ducal ties" was just politics. It isn't actually in the Charter. (per Econ)

2.) yup

3.) yup, just the King

4.) Sounds right as long as it doesn't hit the non-Kaiser cap. Is it 5 or 6?

5.) King does Antioch. Crusader Counts do their Crusader Counties. If there is not a Crusader Count, then the Dukes do their own Counties and Kaiser does Edessa.

[Zim]

I tried out the files. Spain has odd unit sizes and Flemish Pikemen. A possible side effect is that some units (peasant archers, militia crossbowmen) had odd unit sizes for both factions. Since he just recruited them, shouldn't Humme's peasant archers be full size?

Anyway, the files worked fine for me, but I've already unpacked.

[OverKnight]

1.) Econ told me Jan got the Hamburg bonus. "Renouncing Ducal ties" was just politics. It isn't actually in the Charter. (per Econ)

Ah...In the charter it says: "The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his term". I would intepret this as he wouldn't be able to administer a County for a Duke, but Econ is the Kaiser. I might have to clarify this in the new document. Matt having six influence, more than all the Dukes, is kind of crazy.

5.) King does Antioch. Crusader Counts do their Crusader Counties. If there is not a Crusader Count, then the Dukes do their own Counties and Kaiser does Edessa.

With the loss of territories this whole apportionment system is shot to hell. It might have to be scrapped. I'll have to find a new way to keep the Dukes happy and entice nobles to come to Outremer despite being unable to stack influence.

[AussieGiant]

Didn't we specifically address the ability of the King to have more influence than Dukes at some point?

Or was that just versus crusader counts?

[Privateerkev]

Ah...In the charter it says: "The King will temporarily renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his term". I would intepret this as he wouldn't be able to administer a County for a Duke, but Econ is the Kaiser. I might have to clarify this in the new document. Matt having six influence, more than all the Dukes, is kind of crazy.

In an old PM, Econ said he conceptualized that part as meaning that the King will rule impartially. He never meant it to mean that the King actually leaves the House. Jan simply ruled that way due to his personal politics. So Jan never really "left" Franconia. He just acted that way.

I'll have to find a new way to keep the Dukes happy

Good luck with that...

[OverKnight]

Didn't we specifically address the ability of the King to have more influence than Dukes at some point?

Or was that just versus crusader counts?

Dukes get +3 influence, the King +2 and Counts +1. The only reason Matt is maxed out on inf (6) is because he gets the stats bonus (+2), the County of Milan (+1), ex-Chancellor (+1) and King (+2). Though officially in the Cataclysm thread, TC has removed Milan from Matt's entry once he became King.

[Privateerkev]

Wasn't that because Matt gave Milan up so it could go to Fred?

[econ21]

I tried out the files. Spain has odd unit sizes and Flemish Pikemen. A possible side effect is that some units (peasant archers, militia crossbowmen) had odd unit sizes for both factions. Since he just recruited them, shouldn't Humme's peasant archers be full size?

Anyway, the files worked fine for me, but I've already unpacked.

Thanks for the quick response. I thought it should be straightforward.

The odd unit sizes for both sides is intentional. Hummel's new archer unit will be represented by two 45 man units so that the loyalists can also have a half strength one. (The loyalists actually have a little more than 45 archers, but I've represented that by increasing their peasant crossbows correspondingly.)

[Zim]

Ah, that makes sense.

There's still the very real difference that Ignoramus has not unpacked his files, so my test may not be perfect. Still, at least it proves that the files are working.

[AussieGiant]

Dukes get +3 influence, the King +2 and Counts +1. The only reason Matt is maxed out on inf (6) is because he gets the stats bonus (+2), the County of Milan (+1), ex-Chancellor (+1) and King (+2). Though officially in the Cataclysm thread, TC has removed Milan from Matt's entry once he became King.

Understood. A number of unique combinations in your avatar OK...nice work

[FactionHeir]

Econ: Mod works perfectly and also no errors displayed.
And my installation is not unpacked either

[econ21]

Just to let people know, Ignoramus has until Thursday night (UK) time to install the mini-mod and fight his sally. Otherwise, it will be a PvP siege assault.

TinCow and I are keen to bring the cataclysm to a conclusion, so if the situation at Staufen is not resolved by Friday morning, we will move on to a new turn. We will resolve any remaining Staufen 1336 issues (e.g. a PvP battle) while other players make their 1338 moves.

[Ramses II CP]

Oooh, I'll install it later too, and I'm not unpacked.

[Stuperman]

Wasn't that because Matt gave Milan up so it could go to Fred?

There was talk of that, but Fred got Genoa, at least until Ajaccio is liberated.

[OverKnight]

Here's what TinCow said in the 1332 Cataclysm post:

Controlled Provinces: Milan (trade route blocked, religious warfare, and besieged – you’re lucky I’m still even listing it! Next turn I will cease, as you will be King of Outremer and be forced to renounce your ties to Bavaria.)

Please note, I'm not complaining, just clarifying. I actually agree with this interpretation of the rules.

[econ21]

On the King and his ties to his House, I guess it comes down to how you conceive of a County. I see it as belonging to the Count, in the first instance, and not the Duke. (If you are a bonded Count, the Duke can take it away from you, but until he does, it is yours.) So if you get promoted to King of Outremer, there's no reason you should lose your property.

The renouncing loyalties to your House bit is just that as King of Outremer, you should rule Outremer for the good of Outremer (and the Reich) - not favouring the interests of your House.

However, Dukes have become more politically powerful in KotoR than I intended, so it does not surprise me to see alternative conceptions.

More prosaically, I don't see how managing Hamburg should prejudice your rule of Outremer. But adhering to a "Franconia first" policy definitely could.

[TinCow]

Conrad Salier was forced to give up his Bavarian province due to being King. My statements were based on that precedent.

[Privateerkev]

I wished I kept those PM's with Econ about the King...

What we hammered out was:

King does not get blood transfusion. He stays in his house but he is "supposed to" rule impartially like the Kaiser is "supposed to" rule impartially.

County stays with the King unless/until the Duke takes it away if the King is a bonded Count.

It was Econ's idea to let Jan keep Hamburg. I initially resisted but Econ told me his logic. When the GM insists on giving your avatar more influence, you only resist so much...

King can keep posting in his House thread if the Duke allows it. This is where both me and Stig were wrong. But on different parts of the issue. Stig thought I could not post in the Franconian Hall because Jan was King. Jan could. I thought Stig could not stop me from posting as Duke. Ansehelm could.

We've had 4 Kings now and we keep going back and forth on what being King means. Each King has conceptualized their role differently. Which is cool. But some things could be a little better codified.

[Ramses II CP]

Notes on the Staufen setup:

Rebels:

Picture of army does not concur with text of army, one extra Free Company MAA in the picture.

Experience level for pikemen does not show in picture.

My florins left and troops do not agree with the picture (I show 8218 fl and 870 men with the 2nd MAA company).

Loyalists appear to match exactly, I have the same numbers in the picture.

Err, and to avoid spoilers there are some bits I need to pm to Econ. I made saves of the armies if those would be purposeful.

[FactionHeir]

As per Staufen battle notes, the notes surpass the picture, so there is no problem.
As for numbers and troop types not agreeing completely, that's intentional to minimize the amount of modding and in some regards limitations to minimum unit size that the game will allow in a custom game before crashing.

[econ21]

Picture of army does not concur with text of army, one extra Free Company MAA in the picture.

Experience level for pikemen does not show in picture.

Well spotted, thanks. Those are my errors. Hummel does have two Free Company MAA and I did forget the 1xp for the pikemen.

I'm still waiting to hear from Ignoramus whether he has installed the mod. When he has, we'll fix a time for me to send him the map name and he will have 3 hours to PM me a screenshot of the result.

[Zim]

Well spotted, thanks. Those are my errors. Hummel does have two Free Company MAA and I did forget the 1xp for the pikemen.

I'm still waiting to hear from Ignoramus whether he has installed the mod. When he has, we'll fix a time for me to send him the map name and he will have 3 hours to PM me a screenshot of the result.

I think Ignoramus is here in the States, and is fairly young. He could very well be in school right now. This might create a problem if, by the time he is able to come online, it is past midnight in the U.K.

[econ21]

I think Ignoramus is here in the States, and is fairly young. He could very well be in school right now.

He is on Australian time. He said he could fight the battle any time between 9am and 9pm, but that may have been optimistic. The deadline for getting a result is 24 hours from now.

[GeneralHankerchief]

He's an Aussie.

...and yeah, beaten to the punch again.

[Zim]

He is on Australian time. He said he could fight the battle any time between 9am and 9pm, but that may have been optimistic. The deadline for getting a result is 24 hours from now.

I stand corrected.

You know, if all the Aussies united together in an ingame Civil War, the rest of us would be in big trouble!

There's something especially cool about playing a game like this with people from at least three regions of the world very, very distant from eachother.

[gibsonsg91921]

Yeah, I'm from the states along with PK and TC at least, ik econ and possibly OK are in england, aussiegiant is in switzerland, warluster and iggy are in australia, and theres plenty im missing this is just off the top of my head