Out of character thread XVIII

[GeneralHankerchief]

Welcome back Dutch_guy, and thanks.

[Ramses II CP]

Arhus has a siege works, if we could get something to you in time. It irks me to have to use a ballista after even a bombard is available, especially given the somewhat 'gamey' nature of the ballista. Anyway, sally against them every single turn. As long as you do something during the sally you shouldn't collect negative traits or lose excessive men, and sometimes the AI gets really stupid and just pulls up the siege over a few lost soldiers.

[FactionHeir]

I was thinking of that, but I would need missile troops to do so.
Last I checked, it was just me and my feudals and some militia I hired (which econ might have cancelled)

I think we got a paved road system going so I'll spawn a ballista at Arhus later and check how long it would take. If it would take really long (more than 5), maybe we can build one at Bern.

[Ramses II CP]

Evidently the siege works was sold in the off season. Urgh the situation at Dijon is silly, but Duke von Salza could hire a mercenary ribault and send it your way. Not half as useful because of the range limitation, but it might work out okay.

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm are there merc ribaults/monster ribaults floating around yet? Might actually be quite useful at the flanks

[gibsonsg91921]

I've seen one where I am.

[FactionHeir]

If you aren't in Italy yet and there is one, then there is another one likely for hire in Italy. So we could ferry 2 over?

Thanks for the information gibson, owe you one

[deguerra]

Elite_Ferreet, its not that I want to in any way challenge Dieter Bresch's Saxon ambitions, but where is did this idea of Franconians=Prussians come from? If its something to do with KotR before I came (ie not very long ago :D), then all is well, but just for the sake of being clear on the history of my home:

the Franconians, by that name, were created as one of the stem-duchies of the Kingdom of East Francia of the Carolingan Empire. The stem duchies were:

Franconia
Uppoer Lothringia
Lower Lothringia
(all three part of the "Frankish Homeland")

Friesland
Saxony
Thüringen (Thurignia in English I believe)

as well as the confederations of the Suebi (Swabia, also called Allemania) and the Bavarii (Bavaria).

So as you can see the Franconians historically (and I realise things are obviously much less complex in KotR) had nothing to do with the Saxons, and even less to do with the Prussians (who didnt become "German" until the 13th century).

Really, though, I'm just interested in your basis for your story, not at all because I want to challenge it (consider all above "for your information" only), but because I'm always curious as to where ideas come from.

cheers
deguerra

[OverKnight]

The "top-up" armies I spawned at the end of 1346 are supposed to be balanced and "historical" to the best of my ability. We ripped through equivalent armies at the start of the cataclysm though - hence some of the harder manifestations TC provided.

What I object to is that these new triple silver stacks were spawned right near the front lines with no warning.

Matthias is besieged in Adana by one of them. If I had known that this would occur, I would have switched some men over to Antioch, so both places could withstand a siege. I kept men in Adana to have a mobile force because I knew the citadel wasn't threatened, but by changing the game essentially between turns, I have to fight a very difficuly sally, most likely beyond my abilities, so I can assist Zim in Antioch. Even if I'm able to break free, I won't have enough men to send over to him for a succesful sally. If assistance does not reach him, his character is most likely going to be killed in an assault in 1348, unless he can succesfully fight a defense that is most likely beyond his ability.

There is a difference between making the game more difficult and making it impossible. The only reason I was able to defeat TC's originial stacks is I chose my ground and went on the defense. If Andreas is to be kept alive, I no longer have that option.

There were already three full stacks of Byzantines in the area, despite moronic AI would provide enough of a challenge, especially considering what Outremer has had to go through to get to this point. The addition of a fourth uber stack without warning and in close proximity to Adana is arbitrary and completely throws off the balance in the area.

If it was just my avatar in the fray, I'd be fine with it. But this move has basically doomed Zim's character.

[flyd]

Deguerra, all of the Duchies in KOTR expanded past their initial lands. Our Franconia conquered both Saxony and Prussia. I think the idea that Franconians = Prussians came from the von Kastiliens. Blame them!

[Ramses II CP]

Err, don't blame me for Franconia.

Regarding the triple silver stacks, believe me I was shocked when one floated down from Arhus right behind the triple gold and general stack I already knew about (Which is why, in part, I was only too happy to pull a sally against them), but I think we just have to disregard the fact that we know who is doing it and consider it the fortunes of war. Given where that army stopped I think someone was trying to reinforce Arhus and prevent it from being captured, so perhaps someone was trying to give Iconium a garrison and the idiot AI pulled it out for an offensive instead.

It's also worth considering the limitations of IC information. Could Matthias actually see far enough to be certain that no Turkish army could reach Adana? I think after you get over the initial dismay of it, you'll have fun with the sally anyway. As a player I was annoyed at first about Hamburg's second siege, but despite my own mistakes and ultimate failure to lift the siege Fritz had his way in the end.

None of this is meant to compare the situation of Peter and Fritz to the situation of Matthias and Andreas because there are a lot of obvious differences, but ultimately our lot as players is to accept what our GMs feel is fair. I haven't looked at your situation closely, but if you have a cannon at Adana I'd be willing to bet you can damage that army badly enough in a sally this year that they stand no chance against another sally next year.

As far as Zim and Andreas, they'll have to take their chances. His sally is much more problematic, as are his chances in a siege, unfortunately.

[Cecil XIX]

I agree with OK. Though Becker's not in as bad a spot, I'm not going to try to fight that army in the field.

Tincow had the better idea by placing armies as far behind our lines as possible. As OK has demenostrated, placing armies where they can lay siege to our settlements the next turn makes any sort of planning a total crap-shoot.

Deguerra, the issue dates back to Ansehelm von Kastilien's (Stig's) reign. He spilt the Duchy of Franconia into two sections: Saxony, which was Frankfurt, Magdeburg and Hamburg; Prussia with Thorn, Stettin and Breslau. From what I read in the Franconia Thread, Ansehelm lured Dieter Bresch out of Outremer with promises of command of the Saxony portion as well as his own army. Then Ansehelm seemed to back out of his deal, causing no small amount of resentment from Dieter. I can't quite remember how that worked out, you can read about in the read. It's one of the better intra-house disputes that I know of.

'Course, I might be missing a detail or two. gibsonsg, Elite_Ferret, Privateerkev or Dutch_guy could tell you more, as they were Franconians at the time.

[Zim]

Drat, finally I see the end of one ongoing controversy and I get involved in another.

I'm not sure how much weight my opinion holds since I'm the one whose character is in jeapordy, but I agree with OK. There was already a Turkish super army that couldn't decide whether to siege Damascus, and some 3 full stack Byzantine armies within a turn or so of the FOW in Outremer. Putting another super army so close to Adana has basically made our planning meaningless. A nasty surprise once in a while isn't such a terrible thing, but I think this may have gone a bit far.

I thought talk was mentioned a while before of putting the extra AI armies back behind the front lines rather than right up front. Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly?

Anyway, if Andreas does die over this (they always die when I start to get attached to them ), I think I'll forgo another recruitable general, and wait in line for a FM.

[OverKnight]

I don't mind that such armies are created, what I do mind is that they were created at the end of 1346, after all of our moves. This gave the armies a turn of movement before we were even aware of their existence (as Cecil pointed out). When the uber stacks were created in the Cataclysm I believe they were created at the beginning of the HRE turn, we were informed of their creation in the Cataclysm thread and we had time to react to their placement and make plans, something which did not happen this time.

I would happily hold my own against the besiegers of Adana, but if Antioch and Andreas are to be saved, I have to break the siege this turn to move troops over there before the city is most likely assaulted next turn.

My plans for last turn would have been much different if I knew that an army was in range of both Adana and Antioch. I make my decisions by what I see in the save. The save was altered with no warning, so now Antioch and Andreas are in a very bad situation.

[Zim]

In case anyone is wondering, Andreas' mighty garrison force consists of his bodyguard, two units of religious fanatics, two units of militia spearmen, and 1unit of militia crossbowmen.

His opponent has a full stack, thankfully not too strong infantrywise (Although the infantry I saw was high quality, Varangian guard and the like).

Given their lack of infantry, I wouldn't need too many more men to fight them off in an assault (although they'd have to be professional). However, with two melee milita and religious fanatics, prospects are grim.

Anyway, I'll go along with the powers that be whatever their decision. If Andreas dies from it, then next time I'll be more careful. Heck, the AI does crazy things, so they might wander off next turn or something. Usually with such disparity between forces, the AI assaults quickly, but you never know.

[flyd]

This seems like a reasonable complaint. If armies are generated, I would like to see it done next to enemy castles, where troops would normally be manufactured. This keeps the tactical situation realistic, at least.

[OverKnight]

To clarify, the army besieging Antioch and Zim already existed, it had been floating around the Edessa-Aleppo bridge for awhile.

The new triple silver, AFAIK, was spawned at the end of 1346 HRE turn and moved south to Adana during the Byz turn.

[Ferret]

Elite_Ferreet, its not that I want to in any way challenge Dieter Bresch's Saxon ambitions, but where is did this idea of Franconians=Prussians come from? If its something to do with KotR before I came (ie not very long ago :D), then all is well, but just for the sake of being clear on the history of my home:

the Franconians, by that name, were created as one of the stem-duchies of the Kingdom of East Francia of the Carolingan Empire. The stem duchies were:

Franconia
Uppoer Lothringia
Lower Lothringia
(all three part of the "Frankish Homeland")

Friesland
Saxony
Thüringen (Thurignia in English I believe)

as well as the confederations of the Suebi (Swabia, also called Allemania) and the Bavarii (Bavaria).

So as you can see the Franconians historically (and I realise things are obviously much less complex in KotR) had nothing to do with the Saxons, and even less to do with the Prussians (who didnt become "German" until the 13th century).

Really, though, I'm just interested in your basis for your story, not at all because I want to challenge it (consider all above "for your information" only), but because I'm always curious as to where ideas come from.

cheers
deguerra

FlyDude has the right idea, Ansehelm divided Franconia into Saxony and Prussia, with Dieter supposedly holding Saxony (Hamburg, Magdeburg, Frankfurt etc) and Ansehelm commanding Prussia (Thorn, Breslau, Stettin?, Krakow etc).

Nowadays we only control those Saxon provinces and Dieter has always loved Saxony for some strange reason

Remember that this isn't a historically accurate game though

[econ21]

Bear in mind that I only plan to boost AI armies every 5 turns or so, so this is it until the next Diet. It won't be like the cataclysm, where every turn the AI was micromanaged. We will be playing against the AI, not a gamesmaster

The save was altered with no warning.

It was a spontaneous decision. I planned to boost AI armies every 5 turns, so I was going to do it in 1348. However, I realised that handing the game back to AG was a much better time to do it - rather than have his planning disrupted after a turn by a new wave of AI armies.

I don't mind that such armies are created, what I do mind is that they were created at the end of 1346, after all of our moves. This gave the armies a turn of movement before we were even aware of their existence (as Cecil pointed out).

All right - sorry. I never thought about the possibility of creating AI armies at the start of our turn. On a very simple level - a post New Year's celebration haze - I was thinking if I am going to create AI armies, the time to do that would be at the start of the AIs turn. It never entered my mind to let the AI move and then top them up before we moved.

I thought talk was mentioned a while before of putting the extra AI armies back behind the front lines rather than right up front.

What I mainly did was boost most of our enemies' settlements to full stacks[1]. I have not teleported any armies nor have I fine tuned it to put anyone into peril or keep them out of it. AFAIK, of those AI armies I boosted, only the stack from Caeasarea have attacked us this turn.

[1]Poland was an exception, as their settlements in the east are too far away to pose a threat to us. So I boosted Krakow, Chwalimir of Chelm and two Captains. France gave me the most pause for thought, as they have many settlements and we are weakest in the west. So Paris, Rheims and Metz only got half stack top ups.

I have to fight a very difficuly sally, most likely beyond my abilities, so I can assist Zim in Antioch. Even if I'm able to break free, I won't have enough men to send over to him for a succesful sally. If assistance does not reach him, his character is most likely going to be killed in an assault in 1348, unless he can succesfully fight a defense that is most likely beyond his ability.

There is a difference between making the game more difficult and making it impossible.

The situation in Outremer is not easy, but seems doable. Matthias has a nice balanced army and should be able to break the siege of Adana with enough men surviving to save Antioch. What I am not 100% sure about is whether he will have sufficient movement points to reach Antioch. Without the Great Cross and the cannon he could make it in normal conditions, but I am not sure how many movement points breaking a siege will deprive him of.

... . But this move has basically doomed Zim's character.

I am sorry Zim is in a tough spot - it certainly was not intended. I did not see the double blow in Outremer coming with the existing stack attacking Antioch. At the end of our turn, that stack was on the bridge to Edessa, with an English castle between it and us - I did not think it would move so far west. I am sorry that Zim is in a tight spot but it certainly was not planned.

I don't think it the situation is impossible or that he is doomed. If I did, I would just post a new save. However, if boosting the AI puts one of our generals in a tough spot once every 5 turns, I am not sure it is over the top.

[Zim]

Considering I have to rely on AI stupidity (in OK's sally), I think my chances are fair to middling.

I wasn't aware that sallying took up move points, though.

[_Tristan_]

Sallying uses almost no MP from what I know (1 MP at the most)...

Striking at an army from a settlement on a army sitting adjacent to it but not sieging it didn't cost me anything in the Teutonic Hotseat (which is almost the same as a sally...)

I surely hope you make it through...

And I am glad I refused to go to Outremer

[Stuperman]

why is there a french FS in Ireland?

[FactionHeir]

Its a full gold stack.
I think TC might have created more for the French than the others (the French got 4 full gold and 2 full silver) and moved the 4th gold stack to Ireland I guess to keep them away from us.
Still, France seems to have gotten more gold full stacks than any other faction for some reason.

[Cecil XIX]

Just the AI waging war with it's usual fervor. Been there for a while, I think.

[_Tristan_]

Just a couple quick KOTR noob question :

1) How should I go about moving my avatar once the save is available for play ?

Should I ask in the O&R thread or should I take the save and make the necessary moves ?

2) What happens if my unknighted character is engaged in battle by the AI ? Retreat, auto-resolve or do I get to fight it ?

[FactionHeir]

1) Get the save, make sure your fix works, make your moves, upload.
2) If you lead a small (read less than 6 units) army, you can fight it by precedent, although I'm not sure if that is still allowed. Otherwise you autoresolve (or withdraw, depending which you prefer)

[econ21]

1) How should I go about moving my avatar once the save is available for play ?

Should I ask in the O&R thread or should I take the save and make the necessary moves ?

The original post-cataclysm mechanics CA envisaged everyone making their own move and uploading it. However, it was felt that this would be too chaotic so it was restricted to making your own move only if it led to a battle. If it is a move that does not lead to a battle, post instructions for the Chancellor.

Sometimes he may give you leave to make the move yourself (e.g. if it is tricky or if, like FH topping up the AI coffers, you are uploading a new save anyway).

2) What happens if my unknighted character is engaged in battle by the AI ? Retreat, auto-resolve or do I get to fight it ?

Players with unknighted characters can manually fight defensive battles.

[econ21]

The Outremer situation is more difficult than I had thought. Let's play on from this save:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1348-1.zip

I will update the save in the Orders thread.

What I have done is move the Acre forces (1 DFK, 1 Pavise, 2 AS) inside Antioch together with one of the unhorsed knights from Adana. The resulting garrison should be enough to fight off the coming Byzantine siege assault although it will be a tough fight. Outremer will still be in a very grave situation, but it should be salvageable.

If it still looks too bad, Zim or Overknight can PM me and I will arrange with AussieGiant to use the console to add more men. (It is hard to unstitch the 1346 moves as some events - like Karl's death and my new avatar's "birth" are random.) The Outremer issue will only be pressed at the end of 1348 when the AI tries to take Antioch so we have time.

[Ignoramus]

Hello guys, I just got back from a week long holiday, and I don't fancy trawling through all the threads. Can someone enlighten me in brief? Thanks.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Elberhard died in battle, Peter's Kaiser, the Plague has begun, AG's been out as Chancellor (he should be back, well, today) and econ is filling the role in the meantime, Karl Zirn died, Northnovas is now Johann, I'm now Herrmann, Outremer is in trouble... anything else?

-edit- Elberhard died before Eue came of age, so she just appeared in the game as a normal, non-princess woman... it kind of screwed up everyone's plans who wanted to marry her, so those who want to marry in to royalty are going to have to go with Plan B.