Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

" Wake up and consult a calendar, it is not 1945 " You started with your stupid collage for before 1945, trying to equal Communism and Nazism. I was trying to help you in showing a USSR banner in Berlin, but I can see the irony didn't escape you...

I'll go with some more pictures:





Communists and nazis hobnobbing after dividing Poland.

And I am impressed, really. 10.000 gathered on a population of what? 146 millions? that is an impressive movement. Well they still have to make an effort to match the Ukrainian Nazi, first they have to get power...
https://ukraineantifascistsolidarity...r-right-links/

So nazis impress you only if they are more than 10 000? No bad feelings about 9 999 nazis chanting "Russia for Russians only"? Still obstinately convinced that Ukraine is the sole habitat of nazis? Way to go!

As for Parubiy, he has a nazi past. And? If he turned over a new leaf and keeps it turned - isn't it rather commendable than contemptible? It would be worse if it were the other way around.

[Crandar]

What exactly are you trying to achieve, Girlandir? To imply that the USSR=Nazi Germany, because of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and similarities between propaganda posters?

Trust me, you aren't going to convince anyone that hasn't subscribed to Breitbart and is more mentally developed than a 5-year old.
To give you an example, would you believe that France and the UK are the same as Nazi Germany, if I posted that?


Or that capitalism=Nazism, because capitalist Finland or Hungary were allied with the Germans?



Or that the Ukrainians are worse than the Nazis?

WARNING: Shocking content.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ly_1941%29.jpg


Man, that was pretty nasty, even the SS blushed in embarrassment. Still, not going to convince you, just like you aren't going to convince us, so please, don't waste your and our precious time, spamming irrelevant pictures.

[Gilrandir]

What exactly are you trying to achieve, Girlandir? To imply that the USSR=Nazi Germany, because of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and similarities between propaganda posters?

Trust me, you aren't going to convince anyone that hasn't subscribed to Breitbart and is more mentally developed than a 5-year old.

I have no idea what Girlandir is trying to achieve. When I meet her I'll ask.

As for my point, I made it clear quite a long time ago:

1. Similarities between the Nazi and Soviet regimes are much deeper than the outward manifestations of them. Both resulted in millions of victims, only the reasons for killing people were different.

2. WWII is far from evil (aka as Gemany) vs good (Western allies and the USSR) fight. There were other sides to the conflict which supported neither or fought against both.

3. It is useless to claim that some nations were more guilty of collaborating with nazis. At some period of time eventually EVERYBODY who later emerged as the good collaborated with those who eventually emerged as the evil. And vice versa, those who initially supported Gemany changed their mind and fought the evil as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague..._ROA_defection:

During the march south, the 1st Infantry Division (600th German Infantry Division) of the Russian Liberation Army (ROA) commanded by General Sergei Bunyachenko came to the help of the Czech insurgents to support the Prague uprising which started on May 5, 1945, against the German occupation. The ROA was created by former Soviet General Andrey Vlasov as an anti-communist Russian force in the combat against Bolshevism. Vlasov was initially reluctant, but ultimately did not resist General Bunyachenko's decision to fight against the Germans. The first division engaged in battle with Waffen-SS units that had been sent to level the city. The ROA units armed with heavy weaponry fended off the relentless SS assault, and together with the Czech insurgents succeeded in preserving most of Prague from destruction. Due to the predominance of Communists in the new Czech Rada, the first division had to leave the city the very next day and tried to surrender to the US Third Army of General Patton. The Allies, however, had little interest in aiding or sheltering the ROA, fearing such aid would severely harm relations with the Soviet Union. Soon after the failed attempt to surrender to the Americans, Bunyachenko, Vlasov, and the ROA forces in general were returned to the Soviet Union, after which they were mostly executed as traitors.

[Brenus]

"Communists and nazis hobnobbing after dividing Poland." So was the capitalist Poland in sharing Czechoslovakia...

"As for Parubiy, he has a nazi past. And? If he turned over a new leaf and keeps it turned - isn't it rather commendable than contemptible? It would be worse if it were the other way around": I don't know why you carrying on to do this, then claiming you NEVER say bla bla bla, honestly... Where is the turn? Where this guy changed in mind, when?

[Gilrandir]

"Communists and nazis hobnobbing after dividing Poland." So was the capitalist Poland in sharing Czechoslovakia...

One more proof that there was no "good side" in the war. At some peroid of time EVERY COUNTRY/SIDE INVOLVED did something which doesn't reflect a great credit upon it.

"As for Parubiy, he has a nazi past. And? If he turned over a new leaf and keeps it turned - isn't it rather commendable than contemptible? It would be worse if it were the other way around": I don't know why you carrying on to do this, then claiming you NEVER say bla bla bla, honestly... Where is the turn? Where this guy changed in mind, when?

Have you ever heard of assumption of innocence? Anyone is innocent until he is proven guilty. Do you have any proofs that since Parubiy became a civil servant he has said or done something that may be qualified as nazi propaganda/support or he was still a member of the party you meantioned? If you do, out with them. If you don't, my claim holds.

[Crandar]

1. Similarities between the Nazi and Soviet regimes are much deeper than the outward manifestations of them. Both resulted in millions of victims, only the reasons for killing people were different.

2. WWII is far from evil (aka as Gemany) vs good (Western allies and the USSR) fight. There were other sides to the conflict which supported neither or fought against both.

For the last time, Gilrandir. I accept that the Ukrainians are mad at the Reds and the Russians for stopping them more than once from exercising their favorite national sport, Jews-hunting. Yes, we all mourn about innocent, little Peltura and his gang of pure, Cossack-descended Ukrainian peasants, but what is done is done.
Sincerely speaking, vandalizing a statue of Lenin or a Red Army monument is a better way to honor his memory than comparing Soviet posters, coats and toothpastes with German ones, in front of what I'd describe as well-educated and critically thinking audience.

One more proof that there was no "good side" in the war. At some peroid of time EVERY COUNTRY/SIDE INVOLVED did something which doesn't reflect a great credit upon it.

The problem is that the bad stuff done by the one side is much, much, much more despicable and lethal than the bombing of Dresden and the rape of some German ladies in East Germany.
I get it, the collaborators and their national descendants are trying hard to distort what commense sense makes obvious to anyone with more than two brain cells, in a futile attempt to justify the lynching of Jews and the burning to the ground of Polish villages.

However, our education system hasn't collapsed entirely yet, so the majority isn't going to buy it. No need to waste our precious time discussing these matter, right?

[Lizardo]

I think Bolshevism and Communism was a foreign invasion it killed more ethnic russians and ukrainians than hitler did. And it was, agents on the bankroll of goldman sachs etc. overthrew the tsar, marx was a psychopathic foreigner so was lenin when the frankfurt school fled germany they were set up by wealthy individuals of what religion we cant name and set up in america subverting the populace today which is climaxed to the political situation in America today. I actually thank the National Socialists without them communism would be all over europe. WW2 was about Nationalism (Axis) vs Globalism (Allies) and globalism is winning today.

[Gilrandir]

For the last time, Gilrandir. I accept that the Ukrainians are mad at the Reds and the Russians for stopping them more than once from exercising their favorite national sport, Jews-hunting.

You are right. Ukrainians were so good at hunting Jews that now we have the Jewish prime minister who stepped down (or up?) from being the Head of the Parliament, and the President with Jewish roots. A very anti-semitic country Ukraine is.

Sincerely speaking, vandalizing a statue of Lenin or a Red Army monument is a better way to honor his memory than comparing Soviet posters, coats and toothpastes with German ones, in front of what I'd describe as well-educated and critically thinking audience.

Sure, Communists were angels embodied:

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/03/06/wo...ss-graves.html
https://communismblog.wordpress.com/...-kiev-ukraine/

Not at all like nazis.

The problem is that the bad stuff done by the one side is much, much, much more despicable and lethal than the bombing of Dresden and the rape of some German ladies in East Germany.

So killing people in Buchenwald is despicable, while bombing Dresden or Hiroshima is not? I see. The despicality is meted out depending on the doer of a murder. As well as raping.

I get it, the collaborators and their national descendants are trying hard to distort what commense sense makes obvious to anyone with more than two brain cells, in a futile attempt to justify the lynching of Jews and the burning to the ground of Polish villages.

For the last time, I didn't justify any crime. For the last time, the category of collaborators includes practically all Europeans nations and their leaders.

However, our education system hasn't collapsed entirely yet, so the majority isn't going to buy it.

The education system in the USSR (that taught me and is still considered to be one of the best in the world) claimed that Prague was liberated by Konev's army who, having recieved a pleading of the insurgent Czechs, made a battle march and in a couple of days reached the city and delivered it from the nazis. And now I discovered that it was the collaborators who evicted nazis from Prague. WTF? Conclusion: education (especially teaching history) is very often grounded on myths, slantings and exaggerations.

No need to waste our precious time discussing these matter, right?

Then don't waste it, live the myths and half-truths.

[Gilrandir]

This one explains how Russian media exercise hold of the minds of Russians (and Ukrainians who harken to them). People who watch suchlike footages every day can be easily persuaded in any imagined dangers besetting Russia. I realize that this is in French, yet I know that some people here understand it.


And Obama draws upon Hitler for quotes, says THE HEAD OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT OF RUSSIA:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...rs/569896.html

[Brenus]

Hmm, no. That is the danger of using Foreign language sources with a pre-set opinion.
The show is about how the Russian TV used images of the protests against the "new" (XIX Century based ideology) employment laws to illustrate the increasing level of Euroscepticism in France.
The fact that the anchorman himself use this kind of methods showing the picture of Putin when speaking of the head of this Russian TV is part of it.
A bit like when some channels used pictures Russian tanks out of context to illustrate the gathering of thousands of soldiers and tanks ready to march to Berlin few years ago...
For reference, le "Petit Journal" is labelled as "entertainment" in France, satire version of news, so is not supposed to be impartial and completely fair.
What make me laugh is what is the difference with other News channels any way?

[Gilrandir]

Hmm, no. That is the danger of using Foreign language sources with a pre-set opinion.
The show is about how the Russian TV used images of the protests against the "new" (XIX Century based ideology) employment laws to illustrate the increasing level of Euroscepticism in France.
The fact that the anchorman himself use this kind of methods showing the picture of Putin when speaking of the head of this Russian TV is part of it.
A bit like when some channels used pictures Russian tanks out of context to illustrate the gathering of thousands of soldiers and tanks ready to march to Berlin few years ago...
For reference, le "Petit Journal" is labelled as "entertainment" in France, satire version of news, so is not supposed to be impartial and completely fair.
What make me laugh is what is the difference with other News channels any way?

It doesn't matter what stance is adopted by the TV show crew. This episode's aim was to expose to the western public THE WAY Russian TV creates the reality Putin wants it to. Many Europeans are still not aware how intense and aggressive is the brainwashing practised by Russian TV. I remember Soviet TV programs, but I can assure you they fall utterly short of what Russian television is doing. Soviets TOOK a REAL EVENT and gave it a neccessary INTERPETATION. Modern Russian TV INVENTS events.

[Husar]

It doesn't matter what stance is adopted by the TV show crew. This episode's aim was to expose to the western public THE WAY Russian TV creates the reality Putin wants it to. Many Europeans are still not aware how intense and aggressive is the brainwashing practised by Russian TV. I remember Soviet TV programs, but I can assure you they fall utterly short of what Russian television is doing. Soviets TOOK a REAL EVENT and gave it a neccessary INTERPETATION. Modern Russian TV INVENTS events.

Would you say the Kardashians or news that are 80% about famous people gossip and shopping tips are more educational politically?

How would you even know that people want to know the truth? Maybe the media in Russia just gives people what they want in their echo chamber just like a lot of political bloggers.

[Gilrandir]

Would you say the Kardashians or news that are 80% about famous people gossip and shopping tips are more educational politically?

They don't pretend to tell the truth of a war.

How would you even know that people want to know the truth? Maybe the media in Russia just gives people what they want in their echo chamber just like a lot of political bloggers.

They do the latter but disguise it as the truth.

[Brenus]

"This episode's aim was to expose to the western public THE WAY Russian TV creates the reality Putin wants it to." Yes, you are probably right. But what is the difference with Western Media?

[Gilrandir]

"This episode's aim was to expose to the western public THE WAY Russian TV creates the reality Putin wants it to." Yes, you are probably right. But what is the difference with Western Media?

You know better than me that there are Western media and Western media. Some of them report on the news others add some subtle flavor (aka bias) into reporting.

Russian media are either too spicy with such flavors or (which happens as often as not) they report on the things that never happened INVENTING events which suit their agenda.

[Husar]

You know better than me that there are Western media and Western media. Some of them report on the news others add some subtle flavor (aka bias) into reporting.

Russian media are either too spicy with such flavors or (which happens as often as not) they report on the things that never happened INVENTING events which suit their agenda.

Indeed, the only unbiased journalism can be seen here:



See how polite they are?

[Gilrandir]

A survey:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...stic-politics/

And a crackdown on Internet users in Russia:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...aborative_1_na

[Brenus]

"Russian media are either too spicy with such flavors or (which happens as often as not) they report on the things that never happened INVENTING events which suit their agenda." Unfortunately so the Western Media:
Timisoara:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ausescu-bodies

And I am too tired (coming back from work) but you can research on how media made Saddam Hussein building a Maginot Line in the desert, the babies taking from the incubators in Kuweit, (https://youtu.be/LmfVs3WaE9Y) the Weapons of Mass Destruction, of course, and I can carry on with the NATO attack on what was Yugoslavia...

In fact, following your advice, I went to watch RT, then I stopped. They are actually the same than Western Media....

[Gilrandir]

Unfortunately so the Western Media:
Timisoara:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...ausescu-bodies

Not quite so.
1) Western media just took what the local ones were feeding them and then spread it around. The blame here is mostly on the local ones.
2) The graves were REAL and bodies in them were REAL. If those were Russian media they most likely would invent graves and bodies (as they did with the story of a crucified boy http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...slovyansk.html and many others http://english.gordonua.com/news/exc...nda-60117.html).

And I am too tired (coming back from work) but you can research on how media made Saddam Hussein building a Maginot Line in the desert, the babies taking from the incubators in Kuweit, (https://youtu.be/LmfVs3WaE9Y) the Weapons of Mass Destruction, of course, and I can carry on with the NATO attack on what was Yugoslavia...

In fact, following your advice, I went to watch RT, then I stopped. They are actually the same than Western Media....

1) The girl was on trial IN KUWAIT. Western media just spread around what they were told by the locals.
2) In the West there are media and media, like I said. In Russia there is no such diversity of opinion among the state ones, the others are insignificant in their audience and thus influence.

[Brenus]

"The girl was on trial IN KUWAIT." No. She gave the testimony in US in front of US media. The story was completely invented by the media to prepare the opinion to go to war...
The Maginot line in Iraq wasn't real. The Weapons of Mass Destruction were not real... The Horse Shoes operation in Kosovo wasn't real. The mass graves in the mines were not real (Kosovo again). Sarajevo wasn't totally surrounded by the Bosnian Serbs. And I can carry on. Disinformation and deception are now (if it wasn't always) the major tools of Media all at the order of the powers...

[Gilrandir]

"The girl was on trial IN KUWAIT." No. She gave the testimony in US in front of US media. The story was completely invented by the media to prepare the opinion to go to war...
The Maginot line in Iraq wasn't real. The Weapons of Mass Destruction were not real... The Horse Shoes operation in Kosovo wasn't real. The mass graves in the mines were not real (Kosovo again). Sarajevo wasn't totally surrounded by the Bosnian Serbs. And I can carry on. Disinformation and deception are now (if it wasn't always) the major tools of Media all at the order of the powers...

I have no knowledge of the details of all these canards, so can't judge how guilty were the western media. And I doubt greatly they are ordered by the authorities what to write. Unlike the Russian ones.

And off topic - how "civil" was/is the war in Donbas: a commemorative plaque put up in Russia to honor Russian soldiers killed in Donetsk airport after the Ukrainian spetznaz evicted those who had captured it. Pay attention to the date - the very beginning of the armed conflict and the first shootout in Donetsk.


So this is who started it all, not the mythic rioting populaces comprising miners and tractor drivers.

[Husar]

I have no knowledge of the details of all these canards, so can't judge how guilty were the western media. And I doubt greatly they are ordered by the authorities what to write. Unlike the Russian ones.

That's because the people who own the western media, tell both the media AND the government what to do.
So just like in Russia.

[Gilrandir]

That's because the people who own the western media, tell both the media AND the government what to do.
So just like in Russia.

In Russia government ARE the people who own media.

[Husar]

In Russia government ARE the people who own media.

Glad we agree then.

[Fragony]

Don't know if it's true and the article is behind a paywall, but according to the UN the Ukrainian government is torturing people on a pretty massive scale in special fascilities. That makes the association treaty with the EU all the more laughable if true.

[Gilrandir]

Don't know if it's true and the article is behind a paywall, but according to the UN the Ukrainian government is torturing people on a pretty massive scale in special fascilities. That makes the association treaty with the EU all the more laughable if true.

The whole report: http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Count...MMU_Report.pdf

Both sides are suspected of violence, yet evidence on both sides is based on personal interviews. Don't know if those can be treated as accurate.

[Gilrandir]

That makes the association treaty with the EU all the more laughable if true.

I don't see how the UN report bears on association agreement. Jail tortures are disclosed from time to time around the world, even on the territory of the EU countries (https://dearkitty1.wordpress.com/201...scovered-2011/), but neither of those countries was kicked out of the EU, nor the USA's reputation of a beacon of democracy suffered a deathblow after the Guantanamo jail uproar. After all, secret services are notorious for their underhanded methods, especially those which stem from the Soviet KGB.

[Gilrandir]

The head of the Russian duma says Russians are oppressed and discriminated in the former USSR, including Belarus: http://windowoneurasia2.blogspot.com...-russians.html
An ordinary lip service?

[Lizardo]

Ok I have just watched a 2 hour documentary detailing the Crimea debacle. I wish to share it with you.

[Gilrandir]

Ok I have just watched a 2 hour documentary detailing the Crimea debacle. I wish to share it with you.

We saw it way back. And had a heated debate on what Putin said.