Elephants

[divulse123]

Quick and dirty answer to the historical issue. Elephants were present quite often in Hellenistic battles, and their efficacy is generally overestimated. When they were first introduced they were terrifying, but there are several easy (as easy as anything can be in a life or death situation I suppose) ways to limit their use, most of which are not built into RTW and EB. Caltrops being an example. They were very vulnerable to all forms of light infantry, and after a few encounters were most often used as a cavalry screen. The usual suspects on Hellenistic warfare give the appropriate ancient citations. Bar-Kochva, Sage, ect. Also, try Scullard's The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World.

[artaxerxes]

I actually think elephants are way too expensive, as their cost seems to prohibit any sort of real use of them in the games I play - by either me or the AI. But that may be due to my own inability when it comes to making money I just feel that since they used to be a mainstay of fx Seleucid armies (at some times at least), not being able to afford them 'till you've consolidated your empire and made it incredibly rich, is sorta weird, since kings like Antiochus I seemed capable to afford elephants given the economy of the seleucid empire at the start of the game - something that I'm definently not. And anyway I'm so bad at using them (possibly from having no experience since I never can afford to) that them being cheaper wouldn't actually overpower me.

But again, all this could be due to my inexperience and nothing to do with EB

[Mediolanicus]

I actually think elephants are way too expensive, as their cost seems to prohibit any sort of real use of them in the games I play - by either me or the AI. But that may be due to my own inability when it comes to making money I just feel that since they used to be a mainstay of fx Seleucid armies (at some times at least), not being able to afford them 'till you've consolidated your empire and made it incredibly rich, is sorta weird, since kings like Antiochus I seemed capable to afford elephants given the economy of the seleucid empire at the start of the game - something that I'm definently not. And anyway I'm so bad at using them (possibly from having no experience since I never can afford to) that them being cheaper wouldn't actually overpower me.

But again, all this could be due to my inexperience and nothing to do with EB

Well, considering the amount of food they ate, the amount of care they needed during a campaign and the amount of training before the campaign, I would say they are actually quite cheap.

[johnhughthom]

I've also read they were given wine before battle, imagine how much wine you would need to get an elephant drunk

[Jolt]

My elephants are actually very useful. Instead of flanking enemy phalanx with cavalry, flanking them with elephants basically kills the unit immediatly (providing you send some assistence). I once managed to win a huge battle with minimal losses thanks to my elephants since they flanked the left-most unit and kept going til' the right end of the phalanx line.

[Aaldaemon]

My elephants are actually very useful. Instead of flanking enemy phalanx with cavalry, flanking them with elephants basically kills the unit immediatly (providing you send some assistence). I once managed to win a huge battle with minimal losses thanks to my elephants since they flanked the left-most unit and kept going til' the right end of the phalanx line.

True enough, the AI surely doesn't have a clue how to handle the situation when a skilled player is handling them... but that can be said of many other things - such as horse archers for example. All in all I like the elephants of EB, and I have no problem with them. Their historical effectiveness can be debated ad nauseam, and in truth I don't think one can implement them in RTW to mirror reality (or well perceived reality) very closely. Their main usefulness should obviously be (imho) a "cause fear" effect that is lessened the more elite/veteran the unit is or the more accustomed it is to elephants... can't be implemented quite well given engine limitations I think... Call me crazy but I'd give them more of a Drapanai feel... that is to say easier to kill in melee, but still a formation destroying, fear inducing, casualty making nuissance - the more so the rawer/less elite the unit is.

[king hannibal]

I find them more fun like they are as they rule cost a shit load and are the best units in the game and it alway fun to have them in oppostions army


if you don't like them mod them to be like RTR iberian conflict or just delete them from your games as there worthless on RTR and no fun if weakened

[Olaf The Great]

230 casualties on normal size. not one death.

Nuff said.

[Amaris]

Quick and dirty answer to the historical issue. Elephants were present quite often in Hellenistic battles, and their efficacy is generally overestimated. When they were first introduced they were terrifying, but there are several easy (as easy as anything can be in a life or death situation I suppose) ways to limit their use, most of which are not built into RTW and EB. Caltrops being an example. They were very vulnerable to all forms of light infantry, and after a few encounters were most often used as a cavalry screen. The usual suspects on Hellenistic warfare give the appropriate ancient citations. Bar-Kochva, Sage, ect. Also, try Scullard's The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World.

Thanks...that's pretty well what the book I'm reading says, too.

Of course I don't expect that elephants are changed only in result of my word. It was simply a suggestion, because I wondered about elephants being as powerful as in vanilla RTW.

Greetings,
Amaris

BTW:

What was the matter with the forums yesterday ?
I wanted to read the FAQ and suddenly the software had changed, my account erased, and reading postings impossible if not logged in!

[Aaldaemon]

Thanks...that's pretty well what the book I'm reading says, too.

Of course I don't expect that elephants are changed only in result of my word. It was simply a suggestion, because I wondered about elephants being as powerful as in vanilla RTW.

Greetings,
Amaris

BTW:

What was the matter with the forums yesterday ?
I wanted to read the FAQ and suddenly the software had changed, my account erased, and reading postings impossible if not logged in!

The great TosaInu was upgrading the forum software... and yesterday was not the first time, might happen again today.

[johnhughthom]

The old saying "seen the elephant" I think sums up the psychological effect of elephants. If someone had never seen one before it would scare the bejesus out of them, whereas a veteran soldier would be more concerned with thinking how to take them down rather than "what the **** is that!!"