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Thread: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

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  1. #1
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    I thought Rome got a lot of small, incidental things right, the ahistoric parts of the series seem to have been changed for storyline reasons rather than any lack of knowledgs of the period.

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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Yeah, but who cares?

    There's a difference between saying you will create a realistic historical show and saying that you will create a show BASED on history. If you want 100% historical accuracy, just don't watch the show.

    But a question crossed my mind regarding the Egyptians ! How much accurate is the reconstruction of the Ptolemic egypt? to me their style of dressing and court seemed more like the old egyptians !
    At least they look a BIT Macedonian (especially the awesome general guy). The last two things are correct though, and I have to say that Ptolemy whatever in that movie looked very Egyptian.
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    Not your friend Member General Appo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Still, I´d have watched the series just for Mark Antony (yes I know, Marcus Antonius, sigh). Another great performance by James Purefoy.
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    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    I have to say I agree with that, even though I knew what would happen I was still rooting for Antony.

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    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    I thought Rome got a lot of small, incidental things right, the ahistoric parts of the series seem to have been changed for storyline reasons rather than any lack of knowledgs of the period.
    Indeed, I'd say a lot of it was creative license from the point of view of simplifying what there wasn't time to explain adequately, or simply save budget.
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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Yes.

    Mark Antony was awesome though. Great character.
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Hi.
    I have 2 questions.

    1st, Not that I want to doubt the team, but how accurate are the equipment of Camillan legions?
    Do we actually know that principes in early 3rd century BC used spears, and Romans didn't use mail until the end of 1st Punic war?
    IIRC the Celts invented mail in 5th century BC, so I thought the Romans would have adopted it earlier.
    And were the Hastati really unarmored for this period?

    2nd, what is the team's opinion on re-enactors?
    I am thinking of joining one, so I appreciate if you can give me a general opinon on how accurate they are.

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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Well, my question mainly concerns the Seleucids....how did their administrative system work, when it was working (ie, the rare few times the satraps weren't in revolt)?

    Basically, I'm looking for how much autonomy they had (could they launch a war against a nearby entity by themselves? How was the administration of their satrapy affected by the King, etc)

    How were satrapy taxes handled? Did the King have his own guys to collect them, did the satrap collect them and then send a portion on to the King (and if so, what %)?

    What was the currency system used? The FAQ seems to hint that everyone apart from Egypt and Carthage used the Attic system, but specifics would be nice....

    Was the cult worship of Seleukos really that widespread, that there were temples for him and everything?
    Last edited by Victor1234; 06-17-2008 at 21:53.

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    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    1st, Not that I want to doubt the team, but how accurate are the equipment of Camillan legions? Do we actually know that principes in early 3rd century BC used spears,...?
    The ancient sources don't give us much information on the equipment of soldiers of the Camillan army. Livy's description mentions only that the Principes are "furnished with superior weapons". We do know that the Servian 2nd class (which can reasonably be considered the precursor of the the Principes) fought with a spear and that the Polybian Principes used a short sword. Dionysios of Halikarnassos (Book 20) mentions that the Principes wielded spears during the Pyrric war. That tips the balance for us, though we can't say for certain we're correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    Do we actually know ... Romans didn't use mail until the end of 1st Punic war?
    It's possible that a very small minority did. But writing about the Roman army of roughly 160 BC, Polybios implies that only fairly wealthy legionaries wore mail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    And were the Hastati really unarmored for this period?
    The Servian 3rd class (roughly speaking, predecessors of the Hastati) apparently didn't wear body armor. The truth is probably that some Hastati of Camillan armies wore body armor and some didn't. But for game purposes our units must have uniform equipment. If we give them a pectorale/kardiophylax, they are no different from Polybian Hastati, so they've been portrayed as unarmored.
    The truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it. - Mark Twain



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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Atilius View Post
    The ancient sources don't give us much information on the equipment of soldiers of the Camillan army. Livy's description mentions only that the Principes are "furnished with superior weapons". We do know that the Servian 2nd class (which can reasonably be considered the precursor of the the Principes) fought with a spear and that the Polybian Principes used a short sword. Dionysios of Halikarnassos (Book 20) mentions that the Principes wielded spears during the Pyrric war. That tips the balance for us, though we can't say for certain we're correct.

    It's possible that a very small minority did. But writing about the Roman army of roughly 160 BC, Polybios implies that only fairly wealthy legionaries wore mail.

    The Servian 3rd class (roughly speaking, predecessors of the Hastati) apparently didn't wear body armor. The truth is probably that some Hastati of Camillan armies wore body armor and some didn't. But for game purposes our units must have uniform equipment. If we give them a pectorale/kardiophylax, they are no different from Polybian Hastati, so they've been portrayed as unarmored.
    Does the team think the transition from "Camillan" to "Polybian" happened after or before the 2nd Punic war?

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    Member Member brymht's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    All,

    Currently I'm adding a few units to the historical units lists. 2 of them are mercenary general types. I would like to post this question and request the community assist me in getting them as historically accurate possible. Ibrahim, any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Arab Chieftain : This will be very similar in appearance to the Arab Cavalry, with higher attack and charge, due to thier status as full time retainers for the local Arab prince. Would they wear any additional armor? Was this common for chieftains of the time? How would they differ statistically from any other Arab cavalry?

    2. Judean King : Basically, Herod. A puppet local King of Judea; posted to keep the local population pacified by any of the powers to occupy Judea as a type 4 government.

    What would thier bodyguard entail? Would they simply be greeks? I would think they would need to be part of the local population. Possibly something similar to the Mesopotamian Spearmen?


    3. Also, I'd like to create some kind of regional unit in Judea (slinger perhaps?) and in Phoenicia; since this area exists as a "black hole" for regional recruitment at the moment, specifically for the Romans. What was recruited around this time period from this location which would have doled themselves out to a local puppet government. Slingers?

    Here are the other units I'm adding as part of my mini mod for EB1.1 Alex. they are pretty much built, however.

    Celtiberian Heavy Spearmen
    Syracusan Slingers

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    Bibliophilic Member Atilius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    Does the team think the transition from "Camillan" to "Polybian" happened after or before the 2nd Punic war?
    The game's requirements for the Polybian reform make it clear to me that earlier members believed it had taken place before 2nd Punic war. I agree with that.
    The truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it. - Mark Twain



  13. #13

    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    Hi.
    I have 2 questions.

    [...]

    2nd, what is the team's opinion on re-enactors?
    I am thinking of joining one, so I appreciate if you can give me a general opinon on how accurate they are.
    I didn't see any answer for the second question, and I was curious as well as to what people's opinions of them are.


  14. #14

    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Hunt View Post
    I didn't see any answer for the second question, and I was curious as well as to what people's opinions of them are.
    Well just like any 'source of knowledge & information' don't trust 'em 100%. If the re-enactors have been doing their homework it's a real nice way to get some 'firsthand' perspective; something which even movies or games can't give you.
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    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hax View Post
    Yes.

    Mark Antony was awesome though. Great character.
    and a great dick

    anyways, the seleucid system of governance work the same way as the Acaemenid dynasty: the king was viewed as divine, and was considered head of state. then came the satraps; usually family, but also "trusted" men. their job was to collect the taxes and bring it to the king. they also kept peace, maintaine a garrison, and dealt with any problems in the king's abcense. in other words, the system was relatively decentralized. this is part of the reason why they fell; a guy can easily usurp the throne for himself. he can secretly mint coins, not to the king, but himself. he can even use his army to attack the satrapies. TPC has better info on this.

    the kingdom used the same basic system most greek stats used (mnai, staters, drachmas., etc)
    Last edited by Ibrahim; 06-18-2008 at 03:18.
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    Member Member Hax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Actually, I think the guy that can tell you most about the Seleucid Empire would be abou.
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    Biotechnlogy Student Member ||Lz3||'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    I've another question when the romans overthrown the senate , did they still call themselves SPQR ? or something like roman empire? (if the later , how was it called ?)
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  18. #18
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

    Quote Originally Posted by ||Lz3|| View Post
    I've another question when the romans overthrown the senate , did they still call themselves SPQR ? or something like roman empire? (if the later , how was it called ?)
    of course they still called themselves that (SPQR). later on though they more of tencalled the place "Imperium Romanum" which later => "kingdom of the romans" in greek (as the byzantine empire).
    also the senate was not overthrown by Octavius; it didn't even lose all of its powers (at least in theory). that was still a body to reckon with, as a few emprerors found. though admittedly the praetoriani were far more dangerous.
    I was once alive, but then a girl came and took out my ticker.

    my 4 year old modding project--nearing completion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=219506 (if you wanna help, join me).

    tired of ridiculous trouble with walking animations? then you need my brand newmotion capture for the common man!

    "We have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if we put the belonging to, in the I don't know what, all gas lines will explode " -alBernameg

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