The Mongols invade SamWars mod...

[Puzz3D]

keeping the mongols tactically different would be a priority,
giving them a heavy unit with anti-cav would defeat that goal.

I'd rather not give MHC the anti-cav bonus because it was a problem in STW/MI and would mean their cost would have to be increased over JHC, but we'll have to eventually remove the lance and give them a different weapon.

i envisage stepp cav would have even less armour than yari cav, cloaks and padding and No yoroi,
making them even more vulnerable to missiles - (i would Not make them faster than yari cav),
- where one can use yari cav to scatter archers, one could not use steppe cav to the same effect
(perhaps make the steppe cav fear sam archers?)

They could be a slightly less expensive version of YC. Less armor would reduce their defensive melee capability as well, and their cost would therefore be lower than YC. I don't want to rely on fear factor as a balancing mechanism in Samurai Wars because it's not intuitive. We can adjust the morale level of a unit to make it more likely or less likely to rout.

So, we could go ahead and playbalance with the MHC, MLC and Steppe cav as the Mongol cav units, and add the Imperial cav later. I think the Imperial cav will come in as less expensive versions of MHC and MLC just as NC is a less expensive version of JHC.

[TosaInu]

I'd rather not give MHC the anti-cav bonus because it was a problem in STW/MI and would mean their cost would have to be increased over JHC.

Hello,

STW was a very complex problem and it's near impossible to fix anything and avoid running into another pitfal.

It's true that the MHC was a very strong unit, however the main trouble was the battlefieldupgrade and the honour sellback. Both problems are no longer an issue in the VI engine.

Wasn't the cost in STW WE: 600 for JHC and 800 for MHC? All unit prices have been doubled in the SamWars mod to unfavour upgrading. The MHC can be an awesome unit for 1600. At 9k, you can probably only buy 4 at most, and doing so would drain the whole coffer.

In STW WE you could buy 4 at 10k and still have more than enough money for other decent units.

Keep in mind that the MHC was originally cheaper than 800. Its price was increased in the first patch to attempt fixing bf upgrades/honoursellback (perhaps without realising). That means it probably would have to be cheaper than 1600 in the SamWars mod while still having Mr. Awesome status. Out of balance? Yes, maybe. But the idea is that the Mongol faction has stronger cavalry, weaker infantry, uses both and that the resulting army is equally strong as a Japanese army. That never worked in STW WE, but it has a decent change to work in SamWars (no bf upgrades, no honour sellback). Start balancing using the original 4 4 4 stats and twice the original price. Maybe cost needs to increase to 1400 or more.

All Mongol units in STW WE had ashigaru status. Even the honour 8 MHC, that's good I think.

[Puzz3D]

Start balancing using the original 4 4 4 stats and twice the original price. Maybe cost needs to increase to 1400 or more.

The reason for raising the price so high in STW/MI was that MHC had the anti-cav bonus. Without anti-cav bonus and set to 4 4 4 (attack defense armor) stats they woud be about the same cost as JHC which has 3 5 5 in Samurai Wars. If they are improved, the price will go up. We will have to decide in what way MHC are to be better than JHC. There is room to increase the melee stat of MHC since YS have 12 combat points vs cav. YA and YC have 8 combat points vs cav.

All Mongol units in STW WE had ashigaru status. Even the honour 8 MHC, that's good I think.

Should Mongol unit's morale be affected equally by Korean units that rout and Mongol units that rout? If only the Korean units were given ashigaru status, they would count as half a unit when they rout in the eyes of nearby Mongol units. I think that's all ashigaru status does.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

in the meantime we now have a small patch that allows MP using beta 8,
adds in several previously "inactive" japanese factions (Taira etc.),
and adds in the mongol faction with a set of mongol units (even if they are currently unbalanced),

will we see some online games organised using this?
what better way to test balance.

(From reading this forum it is obvious that Hoganji were ALSO designed to have their own unit mix as well,
Would hate to try testing two new unit mixes at once)

[TosaInu]

The reason for raising the price so high in STW/MI was that MHC had the anti-cav bonus.

I'm not sure, but I think the price was increased as it turned out to perform so well, not because they had this or that. If that were the case, they may never have been like that.

The idea was simply this: they perform well, no matter how one exaggerates that, it's always an understatement. So a better performing unit should be more expensive.

This had a side-effect though (at least it didn't turn out to be all that effective, nor did the next step as this was partly voided by the bfu): more expensive units return more money when downgraded. I recall the price was originally ~600 @ H2, that makes 307 at H0. The patch made them 800 @ H2, but that's only 408 at H0 and 571 at H1. It was still possible to buy 16 fearsome, very powerful units. Nothing wrong with fearful units, but there shouldn't be 16 of them.

A units cost in the VI engine is the lowest cost for a unit, if you have 800 there, they are at least 800. The VI engine uses the rush tax, it's impossible that I'ld field 16 MHC at 9k. Something I did once in STW WE 1.0 at 7 k (the first week or so where players experiment, you recall that multi- 3v3?- on Totomi?)

Without anti-cav bonus and set to 4 4 4 (attack defense armor) stats they woud be about the same cost as JHC which has 3 5 5 in Samurai Wars. If they are improved, the price will go up.

The JHC is 1200. The MHC, using STW 1.0 and doubling, would be 1200-1300. I can see it being maybe a bit more expensive than that, maybe 1400, but not 1600. Balance isn't the simple x performance -> y cost of a unit here. That's because the Mongol army is supposed to be superior in the cavalry department and inferior with infantry. The Mongol player has basically two choices: buy a tiny army of very good units, or buy a full army consisting of 50% weaker than the Japanese counterpart and 50% stronger than the Japanese counterpart. This was the idea in STW WE too, afaik CA's intention. I think it makes a lot of sense: cannon fodder forced by the Mongols to fight.

In STW WE it didn't work because:
-one could buy 16 units of extremely powerful Mongol cavalry.
-the upgrade system allowed to purchase acceptable Korean infantry.

It's impossible to buy 16 Mongol cavalry in VI at 9k when their cost is ~1000 each.
The upgrade system can't be used to pump weak units.
There are no bfu.

We will have to decide in what way MHC are to be better than JHC. There is room to increase the melee stat of MHC since YS have 12 combat points vs cav. YA and YC have 8 combat points vs cav.

Mongol cav should get more bang for bucks. Not an extra option for more money. Iirc, every SamWars unit started with STW WE stats and double the cost in SamWars, From there it got tweaked. The starting point for MHC should be the same: 4 attack, 4 defense, 4 anticav bonus, 1200 koku.

Should Mongol unit's morale be affected equally by Korean units that rout and Mongol units that rout? If only the Korean units were given ashigaru status, they would count as half a unit when they rout in the eyes of nearby Mongol units. I think that's all ashigaru status does.

All of them were ashigaru in STW. In STW I felt that an ashigaru was also more prone to waver when seeing routing friends than samurai (1 runs -> they all go). Not 100% sure whether the morale levels were equal for samurai and pumped ashi.

I think it's good for the MLC to be ashi, as this mimics fake retreats. Not sure about the MHC. Neither were peasants of course, but the heavies didn't do fakes like the light?

[Puzz3D]

Mongol cav should get more bang for bucks. Not an extra option for more money. Iirc, every SamWars unit started with STW WE stats and double the cost in SamWars, From there it got tweaked. The starting point for MHC should be the same: 4 attack, 4 defense, 4 anticav bonus, 1200 koku.

I disagree that a unit should be underpriced. You'll have to overprice other units to balance the faction, but players are smart enough to simply not buy the overpriced units. The price of a unit should reflect the performance which is the method we used in balancing the Japanese units Samurai Wars. We had to improve several units between the 10b and 11b stat because they were hardly being used due to them being overpriced relative to their performance.

All of them were ashigaru in STW. In STW I felt that an ashigaru was also more prone to waver when seeing routing friends than samurai (1 runs -> they all go). Not 100% sure whether the morale levels were equal for samurai and pumped ashi.

In STW routing ashi induced no morale penalty in samurai, but in MTW/VI they do so it's not necessary to make all the Mongol units ashi just so they will get a morale penalty from friendly units that rout.

I think it's good for the MLC to be ashi, as this mimics fake retreats. Not sure about the MHC. Neither were peasants of course, but the heavies didn't do fakes like the light?

There is no connection between being able to feint and ashi status. MLC will be able to feint as much as you want as long as they have ammo. That was a change made to the battle mechanics in MI.

[TosaInu]

I disagree that a unit should be underpriced. You'll have to overprice other units to balance the faction,

Indeed.

but players are smart enough to simply not buy the overpriced units.

Not when the underpriced unit is still so expensive that players can only buy a few of them in 9k battles. The 9k is the first mechanism that prevents this, the rushtax is the second.

IF the MHC would be 1k (which is too little) and IF there were no rushtax, only 9 of them could be fielded. What's the max amount of MHC that can be fielded when it's underpriced, but 12-14k with rushtax? 6? 6 units vs 16 Japanese? 4 MHC + 4 MLC could also be ~8-9k. 8 units vs 16 Japanese? Of course you can do that, but I'ld like some overpriced infantry and 3 MHC +3 MLC instead.

In STW WE a 800 koku MHC was purchased at a downgraded ~400 koku, there was no rushrax (for good or worse) and players could indeed purchase 16 MHC or a mix with MLC.

There is no connection between being able to feint and ashi status.

It's an ashi, so less is required to rout it. Yet, the higher morale will help to rally again when at safe distance. Of course this is no feint: the object is triggered to leg it, not to pretend.

[Orda Khan]

Hello. I just noticed this, it's good to see Mongols added at last.

Just a few points regarding balance.

Japanese.....JHC, YC, NC, JCA
Mongols.......MHC, MLC, (weak steppe cav)

I don't see cav supremacy among the Mongols. I played Beta8 and tbh I thought the YC could do with a price hike, either that or weaken it in some way. With weaker inf for Mongols and the above cav roster, I don't see them posing any threat.

JCA can counter MLC and any attempt to engage JCA in melee can be countered by the already overly effective YC. MHC without an anti cav bonus would also be dealt with by YC and having steppe cav that can't even charge archers is a waste of time. What would their purpose be? Chasing routers only? I would drop them.

Consider...
MLC ... Perhaps more accuracy than JCA and with better melee abilities but not as strong as YC or NC...... 700 koku
MHC .. WITH anti cav bonus, not as fast as YC. I see this unit as being a sort of YC/NC hybrid. Capable of beating both in melee it is still slower than YC, allowing the Japanese player the option to pin and rear, etc.....1000 koku

YIC (Yuan Imperial Cav) .. A carbon copy JHC....1200 koku
YHA (Yuan Horsearchers) .. Carbon copy JCA but with less armour (I don't know the beta8 stats, so I don't know what JCA have).....500 koku

On to infantry...
KGM (Korean Guardsman) .. A NI in most ways, though with less armour and faster. A combination of NI and YS......700 koku
KS (Korean Spearman) .. Carbon copy YA (you can't make this unit weaker than rice planting peasants).....200 koku
KSk (Korean Skirmishers) .. Possibly use the Murrabatin inf stats? I can't remember if they were the ones with shields, I think they were. Whatever the case, they should be no better than Teppo in melee....200 koku
YIA (Yuan Imperial Archers) .. Carbon copy SA?......400 koku
TB (Thunder Bombers) .. Now I don't know whether this unit would really add anything to the battle but I would be inclined to drop it and think of another option.....

SC (Song Crossbowmen) .. The addition of this unit would give the Mongol player his 'guns' for MP shoot outs. It could be similar to the Portugese Teppo. The Turkish Crossbow sprites could be used.....300 koku.

This army could be fielded in MP without the need to change era and any imbalances would soon be ironed out.
Anyway, post the current Beta8 stats and I'll have a browse

......Orda