My next game: Epeiros as Pergamon

[QuintusSertorius]

In my games, both so far, it's surprisingly been KH who are the powerhouse who steamroller Makedonia. They've already taken Korinthos and have tried Demetrias several times. I don't think I helped by raiding Pella in the first turn and destroying all the military buildings there (including naval yards and blacksmiths). So Rhodos might be a no-brainer then. They won't defend it well, and as you say it'll refocus their attention on the Greek mainland. That might be enough to tip the balance back towards stalemate, plus Rhodos is rich.

Perhaps Mytilene would be a good target after Rhodos?

Ptolemies are winning against the Seleukids and are presently my allies. But perhaps as you say Cyprus is another island steal worth taking a risk over.

Pontos and the Seleukids aren't long off warring over Mazaka, though Pontos aren't very powerful right now.

[QuintusSertorius]

If I'm going to take Sardis and it's mines off the Seleukids, perhaps I really do need to take Kypros and it's vast wealth from the Ptolemies to prevent them destroying their rivals. They've already taken Syria in my game.

[QuintusSertorius]

252BC and I'm holding for the moment:



The only faction I see a need to hurt right now are the rampant Ptolemies. Perhaps it's time to mount an assault on Side? Or perhaps just a raid (ie capture, destroy all buildings, leave) on Side and Tarsos? Possibly follow that with spies once it revolts back to the Ptolemies (or I give them back) to make them go rebel?

Starting to get thoughts of taking some distant locations while I'm chilling in my main location. Like Syrakousai, or Kyrene, or the Bosphorous. Would they be too hard to hold, given the distance?

[Swordmaster]

Wouldn't it be more logical to keep all your posts in the same topic (i.e. your AAR)? Especially since this is AAR-style stuff.

[Reno Melitensis]

Ave Quintus Sertorius, your campaign as Pergamon is very interesting. I took a close look at your expansion and I would have done the same, but leave the Ptolemies alone for now. It would be better to invade the Phosphorus, they are greeks and have the ideal mic buildings foe you. Wait till you are strong enough, then strike at the Ptolemies and Selucids, and dont forget to ally with Rome. Felicitas.

Cheers.

[Hax]

I advise you take Ankyra first. The Pergamese used a lot of Galatian soldiers.

[QuintusSertorius]

Ave Quintus Sertorius, your campaign as Pergamon is very interesting. I took a close look at your expansion and I would have done the same, but leave the Ptolemies alone for now. It would be better to invade the Phosphorus, they are greeks and have the ideal mic buildings foe you. Wait till you are strong enough, then strike at the Ptolemies and Selucids, and dont forget to ally with Rome. Felicitas.

Cheers.

I think a Bosphorous expedition is overdue now, might be a challenge as well since they've got massive stacks and stone walls there. Perhaps pull out of Naissos and use that army to do the job, giving the settlement to the Getai.

Ptolemies are proving to be weak and disorganised, I can only hope that the Seleukids will emerge stronger as a result of me intervening in Syria/Judea. Once my raids are over, I think I'll leave them for a time, maybe they'll rebuild and come back with a lot more.

I advise you take Ankyra first. The Pergamese used a lot of Galatian soldiers.

I can recruit quite a few out of Nikaia, as well as mercs; don't know if I want to lose that buffer between me and Pontos while they're still a one-province faction.

[jhhowell]

Just so you know, raiding the Sidon/Judea area won't do a heck of a lot, other than some economic reduction if you exterminate and/or sack the markets, ports, etc. AFAIK, those regions offer very few units, even to AS/Ptolemy. Just the Ioudaioi Taxeis, Pantodapoi Phalangitai, and possibly klerouchoi phalangitai (not at all sure about that one). The important cities to raid would be Antioch, Alexandria, Memphis, Seleukia, and Babylonia.

If you're looking for interesting things to do, what about going into the western Med? I don't know if Pergamon had colonies out there, but I'm sure by now you control some of the cities which founded places like Massilia and that one in NE Spain (blanking on the name right now). I've seen KH maintain control out that far after rebellions, so I'm certain a human player can do so too.

Regarding Ankyra, if you don't take it Pontos will. Are you planning on stationing an army nearby and starting a siege as soon as you see a Pontic stack approaching? Or will you be using your console-fu to keep it rebel all game?

[QuintusSertorius]

In an annoying setback, I lost my saves before 253BC, something corrupted them when I tried to exit having started a turn I didn't have time to finish. So re-playing down to 247BC where I was.

I think I might launch a raid into Egypt proper. Otherwise it's the Bosphorous or bust.

Emporion is probably the Spanish community you're thinking of, jhhowell. Might be worth a go.

[QuintusSertorius]

Wouldn't it be more logical to keep all your posts in the same topic (i.e. your AAR)? Especially since this is AAR-style stuff.

I don't know. I try to keep things more story-oriented in the AAR, whereas things are more speculative here.

Talking of which, I think I need a crash-course in how to use horse archers:



I've got loads myself, all mercs of course, what do I do with them?

[lobf]

I don't know. I try to keep things more story-oriented in the AAR, whereas things are more speculative here.

Talking of which, I think I need a crash-course in how to use horse archers:



I've got loads myself, all mercs of course, what do I do with them?

Get your HAs firing at the enemy's rear and/or chasing them around to tire them out. Don't let them engage in melee.

[QuintusSertorius]

Get your HAs firing at the enemy's rear and/or chasing them around to tire them out. Don't let them engage in melee.

I was thinking of splitting them off into two wings; one set of HA, riders and missile cavalry in each. Then keeping the Thracian mediums back with the rest of the army.

Or would I be better off just sending out the horse archers and keeping the rest of my cavalry in reserve?

[Timoleon]

Ave Quintus! I see from the screenshots that you use a lot of Classical Hoplites. I assume that they hold the center of your battleline. This surprises me a bit, knowing you constancy with historical accuracy. To my knowledge, Pergamos didn't use hoplites at all! In fact they didn't even used makedonian type phalanxes. They mainly used Galatian Mecenaries and Thureophoroi.
I will take take the initiative to propose an army, since I would like to see how your campaign goes with historically accurate armies!

Here is their battle deployment in the battle of Pergamun, 190 BC (I found it on the Internet)

Eumenes, knowing he was outnumbered, decided to anchor one flank of his army on the sea so that he could not be outflanked on both sides. He, therefore, deployed his own command, the largest, next to the sea and that of Prince Attalos to his right. Eumenes troops were drawn up in the following manner. On the left, next to the beach, were half the Tarantine cavalry and on their right 600 mercenary thureophoroi deployed facing a small area of rough ground. Next in line were half the army's bolt shooters, taken from the walls of Pergamum to swell the army, that would hopefully cause great slaughter with missiles that no shield could withstand. Extending the line to their right was a deep body of light troops comprising the Mysian javelinmen and the Cretan archers supporting them. Behind the skirmishers were the ferocious Galatian tribesmen, fierce warriors, naked apart from their gold torques, able to sweep even a Macedonian phalanx away in their charge and convinced of their invulnerability. At either end of the Galatians, still behind the psiloi were two columns of thureophoroi to be deployed when needed. Behind all of these stood the king himself with his bodyguard and to their rear a body of Xystophoroi cavalry waiting in reserve. Finally, Eumenes placed Stone Throwers at the right hand end of his part of the line. This was indeed unusual as these large engines were only usually seen at sieges. Prince Attalos extended his father's battleline from the siege engines with his mercenary thureophoroi and then his bolt shooters. Trallian slingers and the rest of the Tarantine cavalry finished off the front line. Behind the Trallians were Galatian horsemen, good troops but lacking the ferocity of their unmounted brethren, and further to the rear was the Prince with the remainder of the Xystophoroi.

And here is an Pergamene Army for the Field of Glory board game:

3 x Commanders
4 x Xystophoroi
4 x Galatian Cavalry
4 x Light Cavalry
18 x Thureophoroi
12 x Galatian Foot
6 x Cretan Archers
8 x Trallian Slingers

In EB this could be something like:
1(or 2) x FM
1 x Lonchophoroi Hippeis
1 x Heavy Galatian Cavalry
1(or 2) x Prodromoi or Light Galatian Cavalry
6 x Thureophoroi (or maybe 4 Thureophoroi and 2 Peltasts)
4 x Galatian Heavy Infantry (maybe 3 Botroas and 1 Gaesatae mercenaries)
2 x Cretan archers
3 x Iaosatae (Gallic Slingers)

Since Thureophoroi are quite unreliable in EB, you could use Thorakitai instead.
Of course, when you fight in the Crimean, you could replace your heavy cavalry with horse archers.

I hope you like my army proposal and sorry for the long post.

[QuintusSertorius]

People should never apologies for long posts!

As you've identified, Theurophoroi are rubbish, so I never bother recruiting them. Only thing is, I can't recruit Thorakitai anywhere. They're not mercs either, so that's not an option.

I've got some Gallic options in my roster from Tylis and Nikaia (mainly Celto-Hellenics, but also Iaosatae and Leuce Epos), but I can't recruit Botroas or Brihentin. I know Pergamon used a lot of mercenaries, but I'm loathe to use lots of them in my main lineup given the difficulty of reliably recruiting them. I try to simulate that with lots of regional troops - Thracian, Gallic, Asiatic and so on. I could hire more Tindanotae, though. I'll be able to recruit Kretan archers soon, and of course there's always mercenary ones avaiable.

In a lot of ways my standard army is a compromise with what I can actually recruit! I may be a little cavalry-heavy though, so perhaps I need to review that. Invaraibly I have five units with a full stack (including FMs).

[Timoleon]

Only thing is, I can't recruit Thorakitai anywhere.

I just checked thr Recruitment Viewer and, indeed, there seems that Thorakitai aren't available for Epeiros, even though they are in their roster in the EB site!!!

Maybe you could use more of Taxeis Triballoi (regional MIC 4 in Tylis and Kallatis) and Celtohellenikoi Hoplitai from Ankyra (when you decide to conquer it).

[QuintusSertorius]

I just checked thr Recruitment Viewer and, indeed, there seems that Thorakitai aren't available for Epeiros, even though they are in their roster in the EB site!!!

Maybe you could use more of Taxeis Triballoi (regional MIC 4 in Tylis and Kallatis) and Celtohellenikoi Hoplitai from Ankyra (when you decide to conquer it).

Celto-Hellenics are the mainstay of my line, they flank the hoplites in the centre. I can recruit them in Nikaia as well as Tylis. Should I be thinking about replacing my hoplites with them instead?

I'm quite attached to the hoplites, mostly because of their brilliant morale and good armour. I'm looking forward to being able to recruit Agrianians soon.

Something to bear in mind when comparing with the Epirote roster: I can't build homeland governments in any of the regions I hold, or can expand into. Type II is my best option. Usually I go with type III initially to build up my regional barracks, then switch to Type II later. Yeah it's a bit of an exploit to retain higher-level regional barracks, but I paid for them.

[Timoleon]

Celto-Hellenics are the mainstay of my line, they flank the hoplites in the centre. I can recruit them in Nikaia as well as Tylis. Should I be thinking about replacing my hoplites with them instead?

From a historical point of view, they suit your armies better, but they are clearly inferior to classical hoplites in holding the line. Maybe you're right, classical hoplites is a compromise you are forced to make.

I'm looking forward to being able to recruit Agrianians soon.

They aren't to hold the main battle line either. They are good flankers, though. but not as good as Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi! You should really try them.

[QuintusSertorius]

I did mean Argrianians as flankers, rather than holding the line. I'll get falx-men at the same time, I remember those were painful to deal with whenever I fought the Getai in my Roman campaign. Should be useful against the later Seleukid lineup.

I might actually try a custom battle with Theurophoroi in place of the hoplites and see what happens.

[QuintusSertorius]

By 'eck, I just took Chersonesus, and it's got factional and regional barracks in place already! Don't need to do much there, even has stone walls. Now to get ready for the assault on the other one.

[QuintusSertorius]

Serious question; what's the best strategy for encouraging the AI to get off it's arse and build some proper armies to fight me? I can circumvent it by just using create_unit and spawning some if need be, but it's not as satisfying as them actually mobilising properly.



I just saw the Seleukids mobilise in my game - to try to take Ankyra. Not to attack me, who they've been at war with for almost five years, and lost numerous settlements to, but some rebels. Needless to say I won't turn down an offer of battle (plus I like rebel buffer zones), but it's not great.

Do I need to give the Seleukids money in the console? Just transport armies to me? Spawn troops in their settlements?

I'm also at war with the Ptolemies, but similarly they're not doing much. What do I need to do to give them a prod?

[QuintusSertorius]

From a historical point of view, they suit your armies better, but they are clearly inferior to classical hoplites in holding the line. Maybe you're right, classical hoplites is a compromise you are forced to make.

I've been doing some more thinking on this point, and I think you're right. Classical Hoplites aren't a compromise I'm forced to make, it's actually an easy way out of recruiting something more like an accurate army, and having a tougher time in battles.

I'm thinking phase out the hoplites as anything more than garrison troops, and use Keltohellenikoi for my main line in their place. Then the hated Theurophoroi on their flanks. Add some Peltastai, perhaps, then Kretan archers, slingers of some description, a few other bits of infantry then cavalry. Perhaps aim for less consistency and uniformity, and more regionalisation of units. I could roleplay it as a military reform taking some of the burden off the Greek citizenry.

Something like this:
4 x Keltohellenikoi
2 x Theurophoroi
1 x Galatian Tindanotae
1 x Karian Uazali

2 x Peltastai
2 x Kretan Archers
2 x Sphendenotai

2 x Hetairoi (Family members)
1 x Asian Light Cavalry
1 x Thracian Prodromoi
1 x Thracian Light Cavalry

Any ideas how to use such an army? I have to admit my tactics seem to come in two strands - either Roman-style checkerboard, or single long line. What else could I do with them?