Why are Theurophoroi so weak?

[QuintusSertorius]

What is this "Unit Compare"? I know what it sounds like, but where can I get it?

It's one of the add-ons, the others of which are the TrivialScript and the Recruitment Viewer, that come with 1.1.

[Apgad]

It's one of the add-ons, the others of which are the TrivialScript and the Recruitment Viewer, that come with 1.1.

OK, thanks, I can see it now. I'm getting problems with IE stopping it from running scripts or ActiveX controls. I've had a play around with security settings but am having no luck. Does anyone know what I have to allow to get it to run properly?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Thureophoroi are not weak. They just ate up Klerouchon Phalanxes and Klerouchon Agema, together with Galathraikes and Keltohellenikoi. They are good at throwing javelins, and they are also decent in holding the line. Did you ever try to charge head-on at a full strength Thureophoroi unit with Hetairoi? Hetairoi are pretty much the best heavy cavalry unit of the mediterranean, and they won't manage this task.

Peltasts are indeed awesome, especially Thraikian. In my recent assault on Pergamon one breach in the wall was defended by two depleted units of Peltastai, one normal and one Thraikian. I've sent forward Pezhetairoi with swords and off-guard-mode, and they got decimated by 50%. Then I've sent forth two units of Hoplitai, supported by javelin-cavalry throwing from the outside. One unit of Hoplitai lost 20%, the other one 50%.

[Arutima]

Thureoiphoroi are not supposed to be the ones holding the line, they are , like their description indicate, a middle ground between peltastai and hoplitai.

in any of my successor armies, i usually use 2 Thureoiphoroi and two peltastai, each guarding the flank, behind the Thorakitai or classical hoplites guarding my phalangite's flank.

and one unit of cavalry behind all of this, on each flanks, and you get pretty solid flanking units

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

In the beginning, you have no choice since you can't recruit thorakitai.


I don't think they're weak. They work for a low price. But they could be stronger. They don't kill fast enough. I don't like expecting high casualties from my units. Someone said they have 50 percent for every battle. I'm not happy with anything more than 10-15 percent on average in a clear victory. I like swords/axes/falx better. I guess that's why I'm playing Getai now.

[Tellos Athenaios]

OK, thanks, I can see it now. I'm getting problems with IE stopping it from running scripts or ActiveX controls. I've had a play around with security settings but am having no luck. Does anyone know what I have to allow to get it to run properly?

When it asks "do you want to allow this site to run ActiveX content" or something, click "yes/ok". Something flashy about the address bar.

[QuintusSertorius]

In the beginning, you have no choice since you can't recruit thorakitai.

I'm playing as Epeiros-Pergamon in Expansion regions with no Homeland available. I can't recruit thorakitai.

EDIT: Apparently I can, having checked the 1.1 RV rather than the 1.0 one which has been my mainstay.

[Timoleon]

having checked the 1.1 RV rather than the 1.0 one which has been my mainstay.

Is there a 1.1 RV? The download link points to the 1.0.

[Mediolanicus]

RV 1.1 comes along with your EB 1.1 installer.

[konny]

I myself find that Hoplites (classical and even FM bodyguard) do not fare well against phalanxes.

There are basically two ways of fighting phalanx with classical Hoplites:

(1) Place one unit of them in a thin line in guard mode in the way of an approaching phalanx. Don't order any attack, just stay there and block the phalanx. They won't do any damage to the phalanx, but won't suffer much casualties either. The phalanx is pinned and ready to be flank by other Hoplites, Peltasts or Thureophoroi. That's how proper Greeks would do the job.

(2) A more radical way, used by Romans, Galatians and other Barbarian folks, can also be done by Hoplites. Fall with superior numbers on a single phalanx by ordering your men to run behind the phalanx. They will start fighting as soon as they are in touch with the enemy soldiers, what is allready behind the pikes! The phalanx is broken and I have seen levy phalanxes instantly routing with more than 200 men alive when beeing attacked that way. The AI tries the same from time to time but uses Pantodapoi and the like weak units for it, who all get slaughtered when trying to get through the pikewall. KH bodyguards, Roman Extraordinarii and heavy armoured Celts will survive the charge in sufficient numbers.

[QuintusSertorius]

It would seem the stats in Unit Compare are still for 1.0, because I just pulled up the unit card for Thureophoroi and Keltohellenikoi during a battle. Both have equal experience and equal upgrades:





Keltohellenikoi don't have poorer armour. And slightly better attack and charge (even if their spears aren't as lethal). No wonder they're better at holding the line (even if that's not what Thureophoroi are designed for).

(2) A more radical way, used by Romans, Galatians and other Barbarian folks, can also be done by Hoplites. Fall with superior numbers on a single phalanx by ordering your men to run behind the phalanx. They will start fighting as soon as they are in touch with the enemy soldiers, what is allready behind the pikes! The phalanx is broken and I have seen levy phalanxes instantly routing with more than 200 men alive when beeing attacked that way. The AI tries the same from time to time but uses Pantodapoi and the like weak units for it, who all get slaughtered when trying to get through the pikewall. KH bodyguards, Roman Extraordinarii and heavy armoured Celts will survive the charge in sufficient numbers.

I might have to try that one with my Tindanotae.

[Ludens]

Keltohellenikoi don't have poorer armour. And slightly better attack and charge (even if their spears aren't as lethal). No wonder they're better at holding the line (even if that's not what Thureophoroi are designed for).

Actually, according to those screenshots, they do. They've got 9 armour and 11 skill, while thureophoroi have 11 armour and 9 skill. In other words, frontal defense is the same but Keltohellinikoi have less protection from rear attacks while thureophoroi are more vulnerable to AP weapons.

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

[QuintusSertorius]

Actually, according to those screenshots, they do. They've got 9 armour and 11 skill, while thureophoroi have 11 armour and 9 skill. In other words, frontal defense is the same but Keltohellinikoi have less protection from rear attacks while thureophoroi are more vulnerable to AP weapons.

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

What I meant was that their overall defense is identical*; in 1.0 or wherever the stats in the Unit Compare came from, Keltohellenikoi had worse overall defense by 2 points. No longer.

*Meaning the same value, not as you point out having the same kind of coverage in all situations.

[Kromulan]

Q: Why are Theurophoroi so weak?
A: They carry spears.

All spear-armed infantry are weak. Theuros are less weak than many other spear-armed infantry, and even acceptable vs cavalry, but in the end they are spearmen. Weak. Losers against any decent axe- or sword-armed infantry.
They are also Greek, which rhymes with weak.
Or Hellene, which starts with hell, as in hella-weak.

[Swordmaster]

Q: Why are Theurophoroi so weak?
A: They carry spears.

All spear-armed infantry are weak. Theuros are less weak than many other spear-armed infantry, and even acceptable vs cavalry, but in the end they are spearmen. Weak. Losers against any decent axe- or sword-armed infantry.
They are also Greek, which rhymes with weak.
Or Hellene, which starts with hell, as in hella-weak.

Next time I meet you on the fields of war, I'll have your pathetic sword-wielding slime ground to dust by my Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou.

[Aaldaemon]

Next time I meet you on the fields of war, I'll have your pathetic sword-wielding slime ground to dust by my Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou.

I found this post rather amusing, given your nickname hehehehe. I'll up the ante and say that I shall grind everyone into dust with my (granted edited building file to make them recruitable once more) spear wielding sword eating Dosidataskeli. Now, that's proof of spear supremacy right there.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Two of the extra armour points are for the thureophoroi's greaves (the Epeirote thureophoroi skin lacks these because it was originally used for a different unit), but I am not sure where the third point comes from.

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).
Pseudo-random factoid: as far as helmets go cheek pieces etc. are awarded some extra armour points too...

[QuintusSertorius]

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).
Pseudo-random factoid: as far as helmets go cheek pieces etc. are awarded some extra armour points too...

This is the thing; in 1.0 and evidently the Unit Compare packaged with 1.1, they do have different overall defense levels. In 1.1 they're the same overall, but the components that make up that defense are different.

[Kromulan]

{Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou}
Hmm. . . heavily-armored spear guys with lotsa morale . . . Time to call in the Rhomphoia. Cheaper, faster, higher lethality and AP attack compared to your dolts with sticks.

[mcantu]

i just did some custom battles with the two units. In 5 battles the Keltohellinikoi Hoplites came out ahead every time. For most of the fight they were pretty much equal but as they started to tire the Thureophoroi would die faster.

In looking at the 1.x EDU, the KHH have +1 to attack, better charge score, a teenie bit more mass (1.18 vs 1.15) and are highly_trained while the Thureophoroi are just trained. I guess these little things make a difference in a long battle...

[Ibrahim]

I see not the EB unit compare...which one is it?
yeah I know it comes with the other exras, but don't see it there.

[hoom]

[Keltohellinikoi have] got 9 armour and 11 skill, while thureophoroi have 11 armour and 9 skill.

That defense skill is the big thing.
For those who don't know why, I suggest playing around with Drapani a bit.
Basically no armour but high skill & very deadly weapons. But they take relatively few losses.
Zoom in as they butcher stuff & you see them doing lots of the dodge/defense animation as they use their defense skill to dodge hits from the other guys.

Theurophori are sweet. Not flashy but very good at defending the flanks of a phalanx or beating up weaker skirmisher types.
Sufficiently good that in a difficult battle, they can generally be trusted to hold off stronger units until a better unit is available to relieve them.

[QuintusSertorius]

I see not the EB unit compare...which one is it?
yeah I know it comes with the other exras, but don't see it there.

When you installed 1.1, it asked you if you wanted to install it too.

[Ludens]

Which third point. 11+9+3+1 = 9+11+3+1 (as per screenshots).