Celtic Two-Handers

[cmacq]

This may have been covered...

I remember reading a paper several years back, about Latene blade length being related to an increase in the use of larger horse breeds. As these weapons were used by the horse and not the foot, for greater reach. I believe that much later, the development of swords that could be effectively used with two hands have tangs, not so much the hilt, disproportionate to the length of the blade when compared to the single hand grip. This is for leverage, with a space between the hands, which is translated into the speed of the blade's end, the great advantage the clay mor has over other swords. There was also an issue of the type of metal used to prevent breakage. Again the two handed grip has a very long tang. Without the support of the tang, a longer hilt would simply soon break or shatter upon repeated impact.

[keravnos]

The longest sword is third from the bottom. If the scale isn't changed, this sword is about 130 cm - 51.2 inches long, of which about 115 cm - 45.3 inches is blade. Also, "narrow" is a relative term for blade width - third from the bottom has a blade width of about 4.5 cm - 1.75 inches. The greatest blade width in this series belongs to ninth from the top. It appears to be about 6 cm - 2.4 inches wide.
These measurements if accurate are comparable to the Longswords of the Medieval and Renaissance much later. As these are rather large i wonder what the cross section was like on these and if the distal taper became *very* thin - 2 mm out toward the last third of the blade. This also is typical of the much later Longswords.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showpos...8&postcount=17

@Lobf, I read that someplace, but for the life of me, I cannot remember where.
Note, that I am not saying that there were actual zweihanders in the Late Latenne era, but every evidence that we have suggests that there might have been. (look at the above)

What I know for a fact is that for many things that are considered of medieval and other origin, were actual discoveries of the Celts, (take soap for example-a Celtic invention). I think that the Celtic contribution to world history is saddly misrepresented and that must change.

[Reverend Joe]

Over the last two years or so I have been collection any image I could find of LaTene blades. I compiled a folder of xerox copies. I remember that page after page had come from Navarro. It is quite possible that all of the Late LaTene came from another source. Yet, I seem to remember that there was some Late LaTene in Navarro. (If Nate B. is listening he could answer this... he has a copy I believe).

I scanned each of these pages into photoshop, cropped each image and adjusted it to as clear an image as possible. I compiled all of these images onto a very large canvas and then began arranging them based on the general blade profiles given in Navarro and Pleiner for Early Middle and Late LaTene. In dealing with the Late LaTene there was so such variation that I came up with the arbitrary distinction of wide and narrow. (You are right in that it is not the best distinction.)

As I segregated these images, in most cases, the Early and Middle LaTene swords were proportional and I could just move them into position on the canvas. However with the late LaTene it was different. Because of the longer lengths, the plates were of different scales and also the fact that they were taken from several sources (you can see the different tonal differences in the cropping)... because of these factors, they had to be adjusted. All of the adjustments were proportional, so the relative dimensions are good. However the proportion between each blade is, as you have demonstrated, only ball park at best. I took two markers to try and shrink the swords to relative size: the length of the tang and the blade width... I tried to balance these two out as best as I could. (For instance, It might be that if I made the tang the same length the blade was obviously too wide compared to the other swords. So I made the sword smaller to match the width with other swords.)

So the picture cannot be used as a fully accurate reference.

[blitzkrieg80]

Again the two handed grip has a very long tang. Without the support of the tang, a longer hilt would simply soon break or shatter upon repeated impact.

While this may be true, plenty of swords were made well before the Naue sword and similar innovation. Weak parts certainly didn't keep them from being built.

On the subject of long blades and cavarly- this certainly makes sense, esp. with a short hilt... Spatha anyone

So the picture cannot be used as a fully accurate reference.

So? citings on the internet or scanned images without publication will never be 'accurate' in authority anyways. it really doesn't matter how much the layman likes wikipedia or how suprisingly accurate some of the info is, academia exists for a reason, and even then, there is no 'truth' and humans are prone to error

[The Persian Cataphract]

To those who are interested in absolutely gigantic "Zweihänder"-style swords of Antiquity... Look no further than the late Sassanids. The findings in Aphrodisias in today's Turkey unveiled one of the most tremendous discoveries in historical military technology of all time: A gigantic, single-edged sword measuring over 1.8 metres in length, with an integrated hilt. They precisely confirmed attestations of Sassanian cavalry wielding swords as "large as a man", and depictions of "Kushano-Hephtalite" cavalry in cave paintings and bowls found in Afghanistan. I am not making this up. You read it correctly, a sword measuring six feet in length.

That, is crazy. No stirrups, yet some cavalry used ridiculously gigantic blades. Ever since the discoveries were found to correlate with each other, the image of late Sassanian chivalry and its armaments have undergone a serious change. It's a serious punch in the face of classicists who have for far too long suppressed the importance of Iranian chivalry in the western tradition. Slowly but safely, the image of "hordes of barbarian rabble" is being phased out in favour of "spear-head of equestrian warfare". And I am so liking it.

[Ibrahim]

if only the Savaran in ibfd had those...*fantasizes*

[keravnos]

Slowly but safely, the image of "hordes of barbarian rabble" is being phased out in favour of "spear-head of equestrian warfare". And I am so liking it.

Absolutely so.

Now, on the subject of long/very long swords, I don't think there has ever been a doubt that the swords were really that long.

Mauryans used long swords both for fighting, but also ceremonially, so as to denote authority. If an official would come along carrying a big-huge sword, you would know he was someone important. As Persian Cataphract noted, they would be used from the saddle, as a longer sword means longer reach.

Mauryans faded but the longsword tradition didn't fade with them. Sungas, the followup dynasty used them, and so did the Indogreeks who conquered their western holdings.

Case in point,
From western India, Saanchi stupah approx. about 150 BCE comes this frieze, said to depict an IndoGreek King, possibly Menandros,

and


The statue isn't lifesize, but the proportion of the sword to the King is, according to archaeological finds. That being the case, we are talking about a pretty long sword.

[russia almighty]

Kern, haven't they found iron swords in India from like 1000 B.C at lengths wouldn't be reached in the west till the La Tene period?


Though, I've seen some crazy weaponry from India, so advance metallurgy would have to be required.

[Ibrahim]

I've gathered (yet to be confirmed), that them Indian swords were extra wide-then again, the person was no expert.

[keravnos]

Kern, haven't they found iron swords in India from like 1000 B.C at lengths wouldn't be reached in the west till the La Tene period?


Though, I've seen some crazy weaponry from India, so advance metallurgy would have to be required.

Indeed, Metallurgy in India at that time was the most advanced in the world, especially where Iron was concerned.