OOC Thread and Chatroom

[TheFlax]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but, could I join as an RGB as soon as it is possible? I've been talking to a few people about my idea for a character and I'm pretty much ready to play him.

[phonicsmonkey]

Anyone know of a good free anti-virus software that will both detect AND let me remove the offending invaders for free?

sorry to butt in here as a non-LotR player, but I've been running avast! for a couple of years now and I haven't had to use anything else since I installed it (I have uninstalled norton, spybot and ad-aware, just don't need them anymore)

it's freeware and you can get it here

[AussieGiant]

sorry to butt in here as a non-LotR player, but I've been running avast! for a couple of years now and I haven't had to use anything else since I installed it (I have uninstalled norton, spybot and ad-aware, just don't need them anymore)

it's freeware and you can get it here

All help is welcome phonicsmonkey. Butt in all you want.

[Rowan]

Weird, I can't access the forums from my home computer (it keeps timing out) but from work everything is ok. I suspect my ISP.

Now can somebody please enlighten me about these speed bump stacks as I cannot look at the save?
IC I don't want Bart to run away, OOC I'm a bit hesitant if the speed bump turns out to be rather terminal road block

[OverKnight]

There are four full stack rebel armies consisting of entry level troops near Zagreb, Belgrade, Bucharest and, most importantly for you, Antioch.

The rebel army near Antioch holds the bridge to the north of the city. If you followed KotR, it's the infamous Iron Bridge (Pons Ferrus), site of many battles. Good times.

Barring any developments, I think TC will move that army south to besiege Antioch. In a way this is very similar to the first Crusade, when the Crusaders took the city, but were then trapped within it by a relief army.

Hopefully the Order will find the Holy Lance.

[AussieGiant]

Weird, I can't access the forums from my home computer (it keeps timing out) but from work everything is ok. I suspect my ISP.

Now can somebody please enlighten me about these speed bump stacks as I cannot look at the save?
IC I don't want Bart to run away, OOC I'm a bit hesitant if the speed bump turns out to be rather terminal road block

As an ex-KotR player I would suggest discretion is the better part of valour. It's tempting to get stuck into the challenge but you all need to accept the consequences of those actions.

Rise to the challenge, free your province and the rewards and effect to you and your house are immediate.

Fail in the challenge, fight a battle but have to retreat, then accept the negative traits and the consequences in the game (i.e. Tax issues, etc etc), stay alive reform and attack again...OR, die and see that effect on you (obviously), your house and the Empire as a whole.

Assess your skills, look at the full stack (they are full stacks but of low quality troops), and make the right choice for you.

There's nothing like a few avatar deaths to raise the stakes a little and to make sure the rest of us realise that this game is meant to be a challenge. If it isn't, we will all lose interest quickly.

I would like to strongly suggest to you all, that if your avatar dies, please accept this and resist the temptation to replay. The game is designed for you to rejoin quickly and deaths create a realistic atmosphere for us to play in. If we "fudge" this we will lose a key aspect of the game.

Essentially TC's asking a question...one of many he will ask in the game in the form of these "Events".

Are you good enough? Win then adavnce, fail then start again or face the setback with a stiff upper lip and move on.

Apologies if I sound like a bit of a prat...or condescending. It's not my intention.

[OverKnight]

Ah, Ituralde, a forward retreat, no one saw that coming.

It's a bit risky, because we're dealing with TC's Diabolical Intelligence rather than the Artificial variety. Still, I salute you.

Edit: Also speaking as an ex-Megas, you're probably giving FLYdude a migraine.

[Ituralde]

Well I thought, what do I have to loose really?

I rather die on some river crossing than holed up in some town, and I rather retreat and take Trebizond than have to retake Sinop!

[Ignoramus]

Yes, but you do realise that you've got the Caesar's royal army with you. He doesn't want it to get destroyed.

[Ituralde]

And I don't want to get Pavlos killed!

[OverKnight]

It's so hard to find good help these days, isn't it Igno?

Perhaps Pavlos will "retreat" all the way to Yerevan?

[AussieGiant]

Well I thought, what do I have to loose really?

I rather die on some river crossing than holed up in some town, and I rather retreat and take Trebizond than have to retake Sinop!

That's the spirit Ituralde!! Take that army that belongs to your lord and trash it against the enemy!!

[Ituralde]

On a more serious note, coming back to the whole Royal Army stuff.

Right now this really is the Royal Army of Ioannis Komnenos who has put it under the command of Pavlos Chrysovergos, right? Then the Chancellor should put all recruitment efforts towards bringing that army up to strength, shouldn't he? Including the hiring of mercenaries.

On the other hand Ioannis could just say that Pavlos is not leading his Royal Army, he hast just given men from his Royal Army to Pavlos. Then the Chancellor would have to direct all recruitment efforts towards bringing Ioannis (currently non-existant) Royal Army up to full strength. Pavlos on the other hand would just be running around with some units attached to him, which the Chancellor could take away from him, if he desires.

Now the next bit would be, can the Chancellor take those units away from Pavlos or can Pavlos simply not move those units? I'm just wondering, because now I could always walk with them as far as possible leaving the Chancellor with no movement points to take them away from me. Or would I then have to rely on the Chancellor moving me together with the army?

I truly am still confused about the whole Chancellor, Player business outside of Royal and Private Armies, since I didn't participate during that stage of KotR, so these things may seem obvious, but to me they're still confusing sometimes. It's hard to measure what you can and can't do OOC and what you should and shouldn't do IC...

All the above is strictly hypothetical, I just try to get a grip on the rules and want to confirm whether I understood them correctly or where I made mistakes.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[AussieGiant]

Hi Ituralde,

The rules are set, I think the issue you raise can be determined IC based on discussions referencing "empire legislation". Best man or most power wins...that's very workable.

Rules are designed as a frame work. There interpretation by everyone is part of the fun.

TC should not have to clarify too much or it wont be much fun.

[TinCow]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, but, could I join as an RGB as soon as it is possible? I've been talking to a few people about my idea for a character and I'm pretty much ready to play him.

I'll spawn an avatar for you. What city would you like to start in?

[Ituralde]

4.3 – Army Replenishment: If a Private or Royal Army falls below the minimum strength level, all military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Army to minimum strength before money can be spent on other recruitment, unless the owner agrees otherwise. In the event of a conflict, a Royal Army takes priority over a Private Army. This rule does not apply to armies involved in a Civil War.

So unless Ignoramus tells the Megas otherwise FLYdude can not recruit any military units until the army with Pavlos is up to strength? And from the way this has been handled in the Test Game this seems to be an OOC issue, where the Megas just can't do anyhting. Just like he can't move your avatar if you forbid it in the SoT.

Or is this a case of "all military recruitment should be allocated to restoring the Army" and it's up to the Senate to see that he does so?

That's the main point I'm talking about. And from what TinCow wrote earlier it seemed to me that some rules are not meant to be breakable.

In fact I don't even know whether all recruitung done by Overknight during his term went straight to the Royal Armies. My intention is not to point fingers at people or to get a nice army for myself. I just want these things to be clear now during the beginning of the game. I'd also like to know these things should I ever decide to try for the position of Megas.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[TinCow]

Ituralde is correct, the Royal Armies (and future Private Armies) should be topped up before any other recruitment occurs. On an IC level, this should be roleplayed as the Armies drawing in recruits for themselves, since their 'owners' are powerful men. The Megas can play it IC as supporting this if he wants, but if he opposes the Army's owner we can simply pretend that the recruitment is done by the Army owner directly. These are meant to be 'independent' military forces which assemble around powerful people. If the Megas really wants to send military recruits elsewhere before topping up a PA/RA, he should negotiate IC with the army's owner.

It is crucial that the PA/RA reinforcement rule be followed OOC, simply because the balance of power requires that the PA/RAs be maintained at a servicable level. If they are not, they lose their effectiveness and one of the main building blocks of power evaporates. That said, there is a lot going on in-game for the Megas player to keep track of. If your PA/RA needs to be topped up, it would be a good idea to inform that player about it OOC.

[Andres]

Forgive me my noobness, but

a) when is an army considered Private and when is it considered Royal?
b) are we allowed to recruit troops ourselves by putting them in the recruitment queue of our settlements in the SoT and are troops recruited as such in our own settlements considered to be part of our Private Army?
c) In the previous term, while Savvas was on his way to his Lord, I found out that a company of mercenary horse archers were with him, probably recruited by OverKnight. Are those now my private army or are they part of the Royal Army?
d) The troops under my command in Arta : are they my Private Army or my Royal Army.
e) Can I take the save and recruit mercenaries for my avatar?

Please forgive me if these are stupid questions that have been adressed before, but I couldn't find the answers to those questions in the FAQ thread

edit: another one: The rules say: "A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue." I take it that a Will in which I give Arta to my yet to be spawned next avatar is valid?
edit2: From the description of Comes : "Cannot lead more than a half stack army unless it is a Private Army, a Royal Army, or within the borders of a province they personally control." addendum to question a) : are there other armies then Royal/Private? If so, what are they?

[TinCow]

a) when is an army considered Private and when is it considered Royal?

The Basileus, Caesar, and any Megas Dux/Exarch get Royal Armies. All others get Private armies. It's in the rank rules.

b) are we allowed to recruit troops ourselves by putting them in the recruitment queue of our settlements in the SoT and are troops recruited as such in our own settlements considered to be part of our Private Army?

If the Megas is ok with this, sure. However, this is technically restricted to him alone, so do not do it unless you have specific permission.

c) In the previous term, while Savvas was on his way to his Lord, I found out that a company of mercenary horse archers were with him, probably recruited by OverKnight. Are those now my private army or are they part of the Royal Army?

You are not of a high enough rank to have a Private Army, so they cannot belong to you. At your current rank, the only military forces you can assemble are those inside your own garrison or within a fort inside a province you control. Essentially, until you reach a rank that can control a Private Army, you can only exercise absolute control over defensive units.

d) The troops under my command in Arta : are they my Private Army or my Royal Army.

Neither, they are your garrison. Anything that starts the turn inside that city is yours to control. Just make sure your garrison restrictions in the SOT are up-to-date, so that the Megas cannot pillage them without your approval. However, you cannot do much with these units without the Megas' permission, simply because if they end the turn out of the city, you lose your absolute control over them. The best you can do is take them out, fight, and come back to the city in the same turn. Another option is to transport them to a fort within the borders of your province, since they also cannot be removed from there (if you've given the proper SOT orders). The trick on that last part is getting permission to spend the money for a fort from the Megas.

e) Can I take the save and recruit mercenaries for my avatar?

Not without the permission of the Megas. He controls the purse strings in all aspects of the game. Anything that requires monetary expenditure has to have his approval.

edit: another one: The rules say: "A player's next avatar may only inherit a single province and a single retinue." I take it that a Will in which I give Arta to my yet to be spawned next avatar is valid?

Yes. We concluded that passing on a single province was acceptable, since it didn't guarantee any kind of dominance in the game.

edit2: From the description of Comes : "Cannot lead more than a half stack army unless it is a Private Army, a Royal Army, or within the borders of a province they personally control." addendum to question a) : are there other armies then Royal/Private? If so, what are they?

Yes, but they don't really have names. Anything that isn't a Private or Royal Army is just an army. Call it whatever you want. Your city garrison, a Megas Army, the Fabulous Five-Thousand of Flavius Flabergaster, etc. I tend to refer to the units that you 'control' inside your settlement/fort as a 'garrison' but there aren't any mandatory terms for it.

[OverKnight]

I couldn't top off the Royal Armies, because we didn't have facilities to recruit archers. I recruited Skythikon for cavalry, however with the distances involved in the game, actually getting them to the royal armies was difficult.

I guess in hindsight I could have used mercs to flesh out the royal armies, but I wanted to make do with what we had due to expense and providing an impetus to build up the castles.

[Privateerkev]

When is it crashing? There are some CTD issues with SS. It usually occurs in the AI turn trying to create an event that can't happen. If you check the log you will see what the AI was doing last and the event that was trying to occur. This is the only CTD bug I am aware of with SS.

It crashes right on start up. The "Kingdom of Heaven" backdrop comes up and the cursor turns to a spinning hourglass. But then it goes back to windows and informs me M2TW crashed. Vanilla M2TW starts up fine.

Because of the Senate session, I had not loaded up SS for days. And I have been only playing a CD game in the meantime, "Delta Force:BlackHawk Down." But last night I wanted something more relaxing so I put in "SimCity Societies", which is a DVD game, and it wouldn't start. Frustrated, I decided to test SS, while also looking at the new save, so I DL'd the save and tried SS. No luck. But I can play vanilla M2TW and episodes of "Rescue Me" just fine. My gf said it might be a dirty lens and I was too tired last night to get a cleaning disk so I'll do it today.

I planned on having Mak sit in Antioch until pneumonia went away so this isn't catastrophic. But it is annoying that I can't look at the save in the meantime.

sorry to butt in here as a non-LotR player, but I've been running avast! for a couple of years now and I haven't had to use anything else since I installed it (I have uninstalled norton, spybot and ad-aware, just don't need them anymore)

it's freeware and you can get it here

Thanks PM!

I'm at work now and will be AFK tonight but I will definitely try this.

[Privateerkev]

Weird, I can't access the forums from my home computer (it keeps timing out) but from work everything is ok. I suspect my ISP.

Now can somebody please enlighten me about these speed bump stacks as I cannot look at the save?
IC I don't want Bart to run away, OOC I'm a bit hesitant if the speed bump turns out to be rather terminal road block

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As an ex-KotR player I would suggest discretion is the better part of valour. It's tempting to get stuck into the challenge but you all need to accept the consequences of those actions.

Rise to the challenge, free your province and the rewards and effect to you and your house are immediate.

Fail in the challenge, fight a battle but have to retreat, then accept the negative traits and the consequences in the game (i.e. Tax issues, etc etc), stay alive reform and attack again...OR, die and see that effect on you (obviously), your house and the Empire as a whole.

Assess your skills, look at the full stack (they are full stacks but of low quality troops), and make the right choice for you.

There's nothing like a few avatar deaths to raise the stakes a little and to make sure the rest of us realise that this game is meant to be a challenge. If it isn't, we will all lose interest quickly.

I would like to strongly suggest to you all, that if your avatar dies, please accept this and resist the temptation to replay. The game is designed for you to rejoin quickly and deaths create a realistic atmosphere for us to play in. If we "fudge" this we will lose a key aspect of the game.

Essentially TC's asking a question...one of many he will ask in the game in the form of these "Events".

Are you good enough? Win then adavnce, fail then start again or face the setback with a stiff upper lip and move on.

Apologies if I sound like a bit of a prat...or condescending. It's not my intention.

AG and Rowan:

Conversations on what Bart should do should probably involve a.) his feudal lord and/or b.) the man who actually owns Antioch and has actually locked the garrison inside the city. Right now, all Bart could do is charge an army across a bridge by himself with his bodyguard units.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On a more serious note, coming back to the whole Royal Army stuff.

Right now this really is the Royal Army of Ioannis Komnenos who has put it under the command of Pavlos Chrysovergos, right? Then the Chancellor should put all recruitment efforts towards bringing that army up to strength, shouldn't he? Including the hiring of mercenaries.

On the other hand Ioannis could just say that Pavlos is not leading his Royal Army, he hast just given men from his Royal Army to Pavlos. Then the Chancellor would have to direct all recruitment efforts towards bringing Ioannis (currently non-existant) Royal Army up to full strength. Pavlos on the other hand would just be running around with some units attached to him, which the Chancellor could take away from him, if he desires.

Now the next bit would be, can the Chancellor take those units away from Pavlos or can Pavlos simply not move those units? I'm just wondering, because now I could always walk with them as far as possible leaving the Chancellor with no movement points to take them away from me. Or would I then have to rely on the Chancellor moving me together with the army?

I truly am still confused about the whole Chancellor, Player business outside of Royal and Private Armies, since I didn't participate during that stage of KotR, so these things may seem obvious, but to me they're still confusing sometimes. It's hard to measure what you can and can't do OOC and what you should and shouldn't do IC...

All the above is strictly hypothetical, I just try to get a grip on the rules and want to confirm whether I understood them correctly or where I made mistakes.

Cheers!

Ituralde

TC handled the "army top-off question" so I'll tackle the "is my army the royal army or not?" question.

Basically, your army is the Caesar's royal army until he says it isn't. The moment he says it isn't, then your basically just running around with army units. And since you don't have the rank for a private army, those army units are with you completely at the whim of the Megas, unless they are in a garrison or fort. If they are out in the field, by the time the Megas gets the save back, he can move them away from your avatar and/or disband them.

We encountered stuff like this in the Test Game. Basically, don't upset your Megas. In your case, you can upset the Megas if you don't upset the Caesar. But definitely don't upset both or your avatar might end up running all over Anatolia by himself.

So, if the Caesar gets mad, he can claim that isn't his army anymore and he can demand that recruitment stops until units are formed around his person. This can put a strain on the treasury so the Megas will probably evaluate all units that aren't part of garrisons or legal armies. Therefore, your units will be at risk for disbandment so as to balance the books.

In the Test Game, the King took his army, dumped it into another avatar, and then demanded a whole new army. The Megas was on the other side of the civil war, but had to comply. (boy I'm glad we did that test game now.)

[TinCow]

So, if the Caesar gets mad, he can claim that isn't his army anymore and he can demand that recruitment stops until units are formed around his person.

Well, I'm not sure if he can simply say 'that's not a Royal Army.' If he does, the Megas can just say fine, but the old Royal Army is the reinforcements for your non-existent one, so I don't have to recruit any more for you and you'll have to wait until it arrives to use it. On a practical basis, the Private and Royal Armies should only be rebuilt from a completely new group if they are wiped out or completely disbanded. The more effective thing for the Caesar is to simply change the commander of his Royal Army. It would be easier to simply relieve Ituralde from duty and move the army personally than to have it rebuilt.

[Privateerkev]

Well, I'm not sure if he can simply say 'that's not a Royal Army.' If he does, the Megas can just say fine, but the old Royal Army is the reinforcements for your non-existent one, so I don't have to recruit any more for you and you'll have to wait until it arrives to use it. On a practical basis, the Private and Royal Armies should only be rebuilt from a completely new group if they are wiped out or completely disbanded. The more effective thing for the Caesar is to simply change the commander of his Royal Army. It would be easier to simply relieve Ituralde from duty and move the army personally than to have it rebuilt.

But didn't we do that very thing in the Test Game? Ramses handed part of his army over to TLG and the rest to Tristan and then said, "it's not my army anymore so I want a new one." TLG and Tristan locked their armies so OK couldn't just move the units back to the King. He had to recruit a whole new army for the King even though units from the old army still existed.

I then asked if an army owner could take his army, dump it all in a city for someone's garrison, have the person lock their garrison, and then demand a brand new shiny army. And if I recall, you said that was fine.

Now I realize this could get expensive, and cause the player of the Megas a headache. But what exactly can an army owner do with his army, and at what point can he demand a new one?

Do we want to outlaw using legal armies as a way to give army units to garrisons and forts?

I remember you saying something about how units belong to the person or governor that they are in possession of. Once a "private army" unit is handed over to another person, it stops being a "private army" unit.

Otherwise, we need to keep track of every single unit and where they come from. o_O

[TinCow]

But didn't we do that very thing in the Test Game? Ramses handed part of his army over to TLG and the rest to Tristan and then said, "it's not my army anymore so I want a new one." TLG and Tristan locked their armies so OK couldn't just move the units back to the King. He had to recruit a whole new army for the King even though units from the old army still existed.

You are correct, but the Megas couldn't control the units in TLG and Tristan's armies, that's why that worked. That's not true for Ituralde. If Ig revoked Royal Army status from Ig's army, then the units are up for grabs for the Megas and he can simply designate them the new reinforcements for Ig's Royal Army, wherever that might be.

[AussieGiant]

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the internal squabbling outlined here degrades the effectiveness of Empire's defence and allows the AI half a chance to get back at us.

My point is that while the rules will have various interpretations as we all will certainly have, the natural checks and balances of the game plus IC role playing should provide for workable solutions in these types of situations.

If I was a Megas in this situation I'd advance the turns a few times and see what happens to the guy demanding an army after conducting business that way.

I agree we need to find a basic “understand” and “intention” for what the rules are designed to support. But micro levels of analysis, while always possible, can be handled in the normal struggle for power and balance inside the IC experience.

I believe that TC will always be able to explain his intention and spirit of the rule...this should then provide a direction for everyone to follow.

[Privateerkev]

You are correct, but the Megas couldn't control the units in TLG and Tristan's armies, that's why that worked. That's not true for Ituralde. If Ig revoked Royal Army status from Ig's army, then the units are up for grabs for the Megas and he can simply designate them the new reinforcements for Ig's Royal Army, wherever that might be.

Ah ok. So if the new "possesor" of the royal/private army units "locks" the units, then the owner of the RA/PA can demand brand new units? So, garrison dumping is still ok?

So, if Ituralde makes it to Treb and takes it, he can then lock the RA in there. And Ig could then demand a brand new RA? Because once it's "locked" in to something else, those units, for all intents and purposes, stop being units of the original RA?

This question also came up in the test game as a way for 2 RA/PA holders to work together to force the Megas to turn 2 half-stacks into a full-stack and a half. By having one guy dump his whole army into another army, having the second guy "lock" it, and then the orignal guy demands a new half-stack.

So, if these moves are still legal, how does that jive with this statement:

On a practical basis, the Private and Royal Armies should only be rebuilt from a completely new group if they are wiped out or completely disbanded.

I'm trying to figure out what is allowed and not allowed.

[Privateerkev]

Meanwhile back at the ranch, the internal squabbling outlined here degrades the effectiveness of Empire's defence and allows the AI half a chance to get back at us.

My point is that while the rules will have various interpretations as we all will certainly have, the natural checks and balances of the game plus IC role playing should provide for workable solutions in these types of situations.

If I was a Megas in this situation I'd advance the turns a few times and see what happens to the guy demanding an army after conducting business that way.

I agree we need to find a basic “understand” and “intention” for what the rules are designed to support. But micro levels of analysis, while always possible, can be handled in the normal struggle for power and balance inside the IC experience.

I believe that TC will always be able to explain his intention and spirit of the rule...this should then provide a direction for everyone to follow.

Yes but now that rules are concrete, they need to be understood. They aren't up for interpretation. So we need to know the limits of them. In KotR, there was a fair amount of fudging since the Chancellor could break the rules that didn't have a * next to them. But now, the rules are to be followed. They can only be amended.

Since the Megas has to follow the rules OOC, in some cases, we CAN'T leave it up to IC interaction and "imperial legislation" as you put it. We need to have a basic understanding of the rule-set, and then we all have a responsibility to follow it, and make sure others follow it. Otherwise the house of cards will fall.

Trying to limit discussion of the rules is not helpful...

[TinCow]

Ah ok. So if the new "possesor" of the royal/private army units "locks" the units, then the owner of the RA/PA can demand brand new units? So, garrison dumping is still ok?

So, if Ituralde makes it to Treb and takes it, he can then lock the RA in there. And Ig could then demand a brand new RA? Because once it's "locked" in to something else, those units, for all intents and purposes, stop being units of the original RA?

Correct, though Treb would have to be given to Ituralde by Igno first, since the province goes to the conqueror's Lord, not the conqueror. Or Igno could just keep it and make the RA the new garrison himself.

So, if these moves are still legal, how does that jive with this statement:

On a practical basis, the Private and Royal Armies should only be rebuilt from a completely new group if they are wiped out or completely disbanded.

I'm trying to figure out what is allowed and not allowed.

I jives because the statement you quoted is just wrong. I forgot about the scenario you then brought up. Not everything I say is 100% accurate. I do my best, but I'm only mortal... for now.

[Privateerkev]

Correct, though Treb would have to be given to Ituralde by Igno first, since the province goes to the conqueror's Lord, not the conqueror. Or Igno could just keep it and make the RA the new garrison himself.

Good point. I guess that was a bad example. But my earlier point of "army dumping" still stands.

I jives because the statement you quoted is just wrong. I forgot about the scenario you then brought up. Not everything I say is 100% accurate. I do my best, but I'm only mortal... for now.

You were wrong!?!

Then who's supposed to correct me when I'm wrong!?!

(which is often)