Another fun chart

[Tribesman]

In other words, they're banned. -.22?? I guess BB guns and pellet rifles are safe though.

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

[SwordsMaster]

Right, boys, cold shower. Let's keep it civil.

To get back to DC's post about the social contract issue. So, you are of the opinion, that your right to carry guns will allow you to defend yourself and your possessions against intruding agents. However, while the original purpose of gun ownership (to allow the people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government) is very respectable, if you did attempt to shoot a police officer who entered your house unannounced no amount of appeals to the constitution would help you avoid conviction.

So while i understand what others have said about personal self defense, I'd like to point out that these muggings and assaults that you speak of are not restricted to the US, and also happen in Italy, France, Poland and even Monaco. And yet their overall murder rates are lower. And personally, when I'm walking down the street, I wouldn't want to think there is some nutjob playing with his gun by the window and I just might get shot. I know my chances of getting run over by traffic are higher, but it is still an uninviting prospect.

The other issue you point at, the abundance of gun crime in places that have banned it, seems self evident. You cannot ban guns in a small part of the country, and do nothing elsewhere. This will only attract armed crime to this - now defenseless - city.

I guess what I'm trying to examine is precisely this issue of social contract. When the constitution was written - the last quarter of the XVIII century, individuals had less freedom, but greater independence than they have today. The ideas of nationhood and globalisation have given us more freedom, but have eroded our independence within the system. So perhaps the rules of the social contract should be reconsidered.

The amount of legislation per capita in the world is, in my opinion, quite appalling. Have we lost all ability to make our own decisions?

[Ironside]

Doesn't the 5.5/100K number of fatalities for the USA include the number of self-inflicted gunshot casualties, not just homicides?

I'm not certain I understand how you can say this isn't supposed to be a pro/con gun control thread, then ask folks to pay attention to the Sociology, not the logistics. Gun control is all about what sort of society you wish to be, and whether you're willing to sacrifice justice for safety.

Homicide as defined here includes murder and nonnegligent manslaughter which is the willful killing of one human being by another. The general analyses excluded deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident; justifiable homicides; and attempts to murder. Justifiable homicides based on the reports of law enforcement agencies are analyzed separately

This is how the 5,5/100k number is calculated.
So that Lemur was right makes that case non-existant in these statistics btw.

I do love the justice for safety remark though, it's so interpretable. Are it the ones who wants guns who trade justice for safety or the other way around?

I'll maintain the idea that the "US gun factor" is the American's relations to guns as personal defense, spreading to the criminals as well, not the amount of guns itself (although it certainly not improving the problem).
That isn't the sole problem of course, so what other factor plays into that murder rate?
And why is GB and Netherlands so high in the threat rate?

BTW Don, unless you got some other source the Finns are killing eachother about 3 more than the Norweigians. I'm not sure that I would classify that as less violence.
The main reason here seems to be violent drunks (most murderers and victims are drunk).

[Tribesman]

Let's keep it civil.

That was civil , well as civil as you can be when faced with someone writing such utter nonsense .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?

Similar to a Remington .223

EDIT: You are aware that 5.56x45mm NATO and .22 Long Rifle (which I presume you're talking about) are a little different, right?

Anyways, I suppose a good example is Brazil - very, very strict firearms control in one of the world's largest economies, and yet I somehow don't think the murder rate is that good.

[Xiahou]

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

You really dont know anything about guns do you?

EDIT: You are aware that 5.56x45mm NATO and .22 Long Rifle (which I presume you're talking about) are a little different, right?

Very different.


Guess which is which?

[Crazed Rabbit]

It seems like someone has a problem with the English language . If guns are allowed then it is pretty certin that a statement of guns are banned is best described as complete bollox

So a gun that takes the standard American sports gun cartridge = a gun ban
Tell me Xiahou , them soldier thingies out in Iraq , what calibre are their rifles ? are they .22 , .22 or.22 ?
Wow americas army doesn't have guns .
What a pathetic post you made Xiahou

Wow.

The caliber the US uses is not .22. You are completely and utterly wrong.

If you cannot comprehend the difference between a .22 and what the US forces use, you shouldn't be in this thread, but sit quietly and try to learn something.

The .223 is very different from the .22 - look at the picture Xiahou posted.

Your 'reasoning' about what constitutes a ban on firearms is unsound. A ban that forbids all but the lowest* rifle caliber and almost all useful-for-self-defense handgun calibers is basically equivalent to a general ban on firearms. You've played this smoke and mirror game before, but your as wrong as ever.

And personally, when I'm walking down the street, I wouldn't want to think there is some nutjob playing with his gun by the window and I just might get shot.

Do you have any evidence of such an event happening, once, much less a statistically significant number of times?

CR
*There are some .17 caliber bullets, but those are actually pellet gun sized and not that widespread even in the US.

[Tribesman]

What a bunch of muppets , is a .22 a .22 or not ?
wow a picture of a big .22 and a small .22 please could you do a picture of a big 9mm and a small 9mm just for comparison

The caliber the US uses is not .22. You are completely and utterly wrong.

The only people who are wrong are those who insist that a country that does allow firearms is a country that doesn't allow firearms .
Like this one for example

Your 'reasoning' about what constitutes a ban on firearms is unsound.

Let me remind you Rabbit as you cannot seem to grasp the basics , the claim was countries that have "outlawed pesonal firearm ownership " .....Latin countries ...bollox .....mexico ... more bollox .
It is not as you attempt to claim "basically equivalent to general ban on firearms" in fact it is absolutely nothing at all resembling a general ban on firearms , it is specific regulations on certain firearms like what most countries have .
So for all your ...

you shouldn't be in this thread, but sit quietly and try to learn something.

given your long history of completely screwing up just about every time you talk about firearm regulations in other countries perhaps you should just sit quietly Rabbit

[woad&fangs]

Tribes, if you think the picture was showing a "big 22" then you are the one talking bollox.


About the Mexico ban.

22s are only useful for paper targets and squirrels/rabbits. They are trash for self defense.

As for the pistols, according to you, .45, .44mag, and .357 are all banned in Mexico and they are the most common calibers for self defense. Also, it effectively bans .38 cal guns as well since most .38s are built to also use .357s. Lower calibers then a .357 that I know of are .32(hard to find) and 22s(crap for defensive purposes).

So yes, for our purposes here, the Mexican law is a gun ban.

[Craterus]

Hey, how many times have you all had to defend yourselves from an attacker *EDIT: what's more, when a gun was the only suitable defense and a melee weapon would not have sufficed?

I know the American media suggests the opposite, but not everyone is out to get you.

Also, a city with a ban on guns isn't 'defenseless', there are such things as police forces but I know you all think you are more competent than those trained professionals, it doesn't surprise when such experts accidentally shoot family members while defending their property and all things American.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What a bunch of muppets , is a .22 a .22 or not ?

Oh man, hilarious.

The US forces use .223 caliber bullets - can you see how that's different? Because it's a different number? Because it has a different number of digits? And how those different numbers mean different things? Do you understand that differently sized bullets are not the same?

wow a picture of a big .22 and a small .22 please could you do a picture of a big 9mm and a small 9mm just for comparison

CR

[Tribesman]

Thats so funny Rabbit you screwed up again , the 223 is just a name it is a smaller 22 calibre than the 222

Do you understand that differently sized bullets are not the same?

Yes they have different performances , just like you can get ots of 224s with different performances , but since the liomitation is only to rifles of the 22 calibre category then it is only rifles of 22 calibre category and that is a bloody big category

Tribes, if you think the picture was showing a "big 22" then you are the one talking bollox.

Are you trying to say it is a smaller 22 and they have used photoshop then ? blimey they did a good job you can't see the seams at all , it certainly looks bigger doesn't it .

22s are only useful for paper targets and squirrels/rabbits. They are trash for self defense.

Is that why the US Navy seals use .22 pistols . I never knew seals hunted rabbits .

Also, it effectively bans .38 cal guns as well since most .38s are built to also use .357s.

the ban is on 357 guns and ammunition , you can have a 38 but you are not allowed to buy or put 357s into it , you know its part of the law they have .

So yes, for our purposes here, the Mexican law is a gun ban.

So for your purposes being allowed to have shotguns , rifles and handguns = a gun ban . Friggng moonbats .
Well there you go the reason for the high level of kilings in America despite not having the same social demographics as third world banana republics is obviously because there are lots of moonbats there .

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Right, boys, cold shower. Let's keep it civil.

To get back to DC's post about the social contract issue. So, you are of the opinion, that your right to carry guns will allow you to defend yourself and your possessions against intruding agents. However, while the original purpose of gun ownership (to allow the people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government) is very respectable, if you did attempt to shoot a police officer who entered your house unannounced no amount of appeals to the constitution would help you avoid conviction.

There was just a thread on this a couple weeks ago--a drug dealer who shot and killed a police man who busted into his house was let off.

The other issue you point at, the abundance of gun crime in places that have banned it, seems self evident. You cannot ban guns in a small part of the country, and do nothing elsewhere. This will only attract armed crime to this - now defenseless - city.

It should be evident that you can't ban guns at all in the US. We have giant borders to the north and south. We can't keep drugs and illegal immigrants out, you think we can keep guns out?

Hey, how many times have you all had to defend yourselves from an attacker *EDIT: what's more, when a gun was the only suitable defense and a melee weapon would not have sufficed?

Just about any time a woman is attacked by a man a melee weapon will not suffice. Same with an attack by multiple people. Guns equalize things. I'd rather have a pistol against two guys with machine guns than a knife against two with knives. Common sense.

I know the American media suggests the opposite, but not everyone is out to get you.

No one thinks they are, nice job trying to paint all Americans as paranoid nutjobs though.

Also, a city with a ban on guns isn't 'defenseless', there are such things as police forces but I know you all think you are more competent than those trained professionals, it doesn't surprise when such experts accidentally shoot family members while defending their property and all things American.

The police are limited in how much protection they can provide.

[Craterus]

Just about any time a woman is attacked by a man a melee weapon will not suffice. Same with an attack by multiple people. Guns equalize things. I'd rather have a pistol against two guys with machine guns than a knife against two with knives. Common sense.

That wasn't the question, did I need to bold and capitalise the YOU?

No one thinks they are, nice job trying to paint all Americans as paranoid nutjobs though.

Really? I read about a few statistics: crime has gone down in the US, but the reporting of crime in the media has gone waaay up, and with that so has the sales of firearms?

[woad&fangs]

Thats so funny Rabbit you screwed up again , the 223 is just a name it is a smaller 22 calibre than the 222

Yes they have different performances , just like you can get ots of 224s with different performances , but since the liomitation is only to rifles of the 22 calibre category then it is only rifles of 22 calibre category and that is a bloody big category

223 are bigger then 22s tribesy. The bullet itself isn't much bigger but it contains a lot more powder. I know, my family owns a 223 and several 22s. Also, what is the exact wording of this ban? Does it allow only 22 rimfires or are centerfires allowed?

Are you trying to say it is a smaller 22 and they have used photoshop then ? blimey they did a good job you can't see the seams at all , it certainly looks bigger doesn't it .


Is that why the US Navy seals use .22 pistols . I never knew seals hunted rabbits .

The cartridge on the right is a 22, the one on the left which you claim to be a 22 is NOT. I'm not sure what exactly its caliber is but it is not a 22. Also, I don't believe SEALs carry 22s. They most likely carry 9mms or .45s.

the ban is on 357 guns and ammunition , you can have a 38 but you are not allowed to buy or put 357s into it , you know its part of the law they have .


So for your purposes being allowed to have shotguns , rifles and handguns = a gun ban . Friggng moonbats .
Well there you go the reason for the high level of kilings in America despite not having the same social demographics as third world banana republics is obviously because there are lots of moonbats there .

O deary me, you mean that law you won't post a link to. Just like how you won't back up your assertion that SEALs carry 22s. If the law does indeed allow one to purchase a 38/357 handgun but not to purchase 357 ammo then I'm wrong but I'm going off the info your spewing out.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Tribsey, I'm sorry, and you're good at bull, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about when it comes to guns and ammunition.

Anyways, there's a description of the laws on Wiki.

[Tribesman]

223 are bigger then 22s tribesy.

Wellthats a turn around , just now you said that if I thought it was bigger I was talking bollox
Anyhow what did I just write ? the 222 is bigger than the 223 hmmmm..true or false lets see one is a 224 and one is a 2245 which is which ? and are they both 22 are their bigger 22 rounds than the Nato one ? Are they still 22 calibre ? of the wide range of 22 calibre rounds why are none of them actually 22 in size ?

Also, I don't believe SEALs carry 22s.

Oh but they do Woad , on their special rabbit hunting operations , you never know when a dastardly wabbit will attack you .
Lets see , the pistol they use that is a 22 has a name that is very similar to that iconic german pistol , in fact if Elmer Fudd said the name of both pistols you might have difficulty telling them apart as they is so similar .

If the law does indeed allow one to purchase a 38/357 handgun but not to purchase 357 ammo then I'm wrong but I'm going off the info your spewing out.

Think about it , what is the big difference between a 38 and a 357, a clue might be in what you noted earlier about interchangability , it isn't the size of the round is it , the actual size of the round wouldn't have caused nasty accidents with guns being able to fit and fire the round but not being able to take it
But anyway the thing there is with the purchasing of guns and ammunition , you cannot buy guns privately , you can only buy from licenced dealers , the owner and the gun is registered , you are only allowed to buy ammunition for the gun that you have registered from a licenced dealer , simple isn't it . You buy a 38 and you can buy the ammunition for that gun .

[Sasaki Kojiro]

That wasn't the question, did I need to bold and capitalise the YOU?

I know you said YOU. I didn't respond to that because it's clearly irrelevant to the issue at hand. You wouldn't come into a thread on racism against black people and say "how many of you have been discriminated against because of your skin color?" when clearly most of us are white. There are more people in America than there are in this thread.

Really? I read about a few statistics: crime has gone down in the US, but the reporting of crime in the media has gone waaay up, and with that so has the sales of firearms?

People are reached by the media more than ever before, but you were exaggerating needlessly. You seem to be trying to make the point that some people buy guns when they don't need to because they are scared, but that's not the issue. Some people are rightfully scared and they have a right to defend themselves.

[woad&fangs]

You claimed that both cartridges in that picture are 22s. One is and one is not.

Navy Seals carry SIG 9mms and HKUSP45s as standard issue weapons. that's a 9mm and a .45. Not a 22.

I'm not sure what you are claiming with that last paragraph. Are you claiming 357s are more powerful than .38(true) which causes the guns to break(not take it)? If that's the case than I can tell you that almost every .38 gun can fire .357s cartridges just fine. They're made to be interchangable.

I like that you brought up that only the state can sell guns and ammo. You forgot to mention earlier that the only way to purchase those is with a licence from the state. A license which you can only get if you are part of a shooting club and there are no public shooting ranges in Mexico.

So yes, if you're a yacht owning bourgeusie who can afford his monthly country club shooting range fees there isn't a ban.

[Tribesman]

Navy Seals carry SIG 9mms and HKUSP45s as standard issue weapons. that's a 9mm and a .45. Not a 22.

you missed the Ruger
to which you can add the HDM which is also a 22 .

You forgot to mention earlier that the only way to purchase those is with a licence from the state.

Wow you mean the government is in charge of firearm regulation ...thats shocking that is whatever next , I suppose you are going to shock us all withsomedramtic revelation about government control of issuing a driving licence

[Crazed Rabbit]

Thats so funny Rabbit you screwed up again , the 223 is just a name it is a smaller 22 calibre than the 222

The 222? What are you talking about? Stop listing off strings of numbers you claim are calibers with no information if you want people to even read your posts in this thread anymore and not just laugh at you.

The .22 is a weak round. Exotic calibers near in size like the .224 WSSM don't really pertain to this discussion because they are a novelty compared to the .22 and, in the US, the .223.

How many guns in Mexico are chambered in a .22X caliber and achieve comparable results to the .223 Remington (equivalent to the cartridge used by the US) and are not used by any state forces (which would mean they can't be owned)?

Is that why the US Navy seals use .22 pistols . I never knew seals hunted rabbits .

Link for this assertion? Would that be their regular sidearm or just for when they can sneak to ten feet of a guy and pop him in the head?

So for your purposes being allowed to have shotguns , rifles and handguns = a gun ban . Friggng moonbats .
Well there you go the reason for the high level of kilings in America despite not having the same social demographics as third world banana republics is obviously because there are lots of moonbats there .

So if a country banned all books but those under 100 pages, banned those used by universities, restricted the use of modern printing presses, didn't let people speak freely on public property, etc., etc., you'd argue that they had free speech?

And, of course, their's other restrictions Mexico has on getting guns than just their caliber. And they have very severe laws for mere possession of one bullet of a forbidden caliber. Also, I think you may not have even gotten Mexico's laws right.

Yet that has done nothing to stop crime.

Are you trying to say it is a smaller 22 and they have used photoshop then ? blimey they did a good job you can't see the seams at all , it certainly looks bigger doesn't it .

Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about. You know tribesy, even accepting that you usually just troll threads you usually have some semblance of an idea of what's going on. Sadly (for you), that is clearly not the case here.

what's more, when a gun was the only suitable defense and a melee weapon would not have sufficed?

You're looking at this thing the wrong way. One doesn't try to decide, when faced with an attacker, what's the minimum force and tool you could, possibly, use and not suffer serious harm. If a person comes at me such that I would consider using a weapon of any sort to defend myself, then they are serious about hurting me and I am going to take the safest course of action for myself.

CR

[Xiahou]

I'm not sure what you are claiming with that last paragraph. Are you claiming 357s are more powerful than .38(true) which causes the guns to break(not take it)? If that's the case than I can tell you that almost every .38 gun can fire .357s cartridges just fine. They're made to be interchangable

Well, to be completely accurate, a .38 revolver can't fire .357 magnum rounds. The shells are longer so they won't fit in the cylinder. OTOH, a .357 can load and fire .38s with no problem at all. In practice, no one really buys .38s much anymore since a .357 is much more versatile being able to fire .38s, their high pressure variants and the .357.

Tribes is completely out of his depth here, and to top it all off, he's not even reading the law correctly- I guess that's the benefit of never providing any sources. You don't have to keep your facts straight.

[Tribesman]

The 222? What are you talking about? Stop listing off strings of numbers you claim are calibers with no information if you want people to even read your posts in this thread anymore and not just laugh at you.

Oh but rabbit I thought you was a gun fetishist surely you should know that the 222 (which is a .22) was the fatter but shorter round than the 223 by the same manufacturer who also made another version of the 222 (which was also a .22) but it was the same width as the .223 but longer .
So if both versions of the 222 rounds are .22 calibre then the 223 is also a .22 calibre round even though it is thinner than one and shorter than the other .
If it is a .22 round then the gun is a .22 gun , simple isn't it .

Link for this assertion?

awwwww would you like a little list of sidearms used by the US military Rabbitgo on have a little look on the net and see if you can spot the RugerII and the HDM on it both of which are .22

And they have very severe laws for mere possession of one bullet of a forbidden caliber.

Hey Rabbit I thought you was in favour of strict enforcement of firearm legislation . Did you change your mind or something ?

So if a country banned all books but those under 100 pages, banned those used by universities, restricted the use of modern printing presses, didn't let people speak freely on public property, etc., etc., you'd argue that they had free speech?

Is that one of them scarecrow thingies like when it sure don't look like Kansas Toto ?
If you remember the claim was that Mexico had banned private ownership of guns , so for your little lame attempt there to work it would have to be a ban on all books even those under 100 pages

Also, I think you may not have even gotten Mexico's laws right.

I know , I took some of it from that Dave Kopel idiot on the second amendment project site , I knew I shouldn't have relied on a gun nut for accurate information .

[Tribesman]

Well, to be completely accurate, a .38 revolver can't fire .357 magnum rounds.

But they used to , the .357 design was changed for exactly the reason that it fitted the same as a .38 special and the resuts could be unpleasant .

Tribes is completely out of his depth here

OK Mr smarty , when is a .22 not a .22 ? is it perhaps on the same occasion that a .45 isn't a .45 ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh but rabbit I thought you was a gun fetishist surely you should know that the 222 (which is a .22) was the fatter but shorter round than the 223 by the same manufacturer who also made another version of the 222 (which was also a .22) but it was the same width as the .223 but longer .
So if both versions of the 222 rounds are .22 calibre then the 223 is also a .22 calibre round even though it is thinner than one and shorter than the other .
If it is a .22 round then the gun is a .22 gun , simple isn't it

No, you're again wrong.

A ".22" is only a .22 caliber round - most commonly the .22LR. It does not include every cartridge that starts with .22xxx under the sun. A .22 round is not a .223 round, and so .22 is not an umbrella term that fits a .223 or a .224 caliber.

"can you see how that's different? Because it's a different number? Because it has a different number of digits? And how those different numbers mean different things? Do you understand that differently sized bullets are not the same?"

I know , I took some of it from that Dave Kopel idiot on the second amendment project site , I knew I shouldn't have relied on a gun nut for accurate information .

Don't go blaming others for your out-spoken ignorance.

go on have a little look on the net and see if you can spot the RugerII and the HDM on it both of which are .22

No. You provide the info that you are basing your posts on.

And why can't you answer this question:

How many guns in Mexico are chambered in a .22X caliber and achieve comparable results to the .223 Remington (equivalent to the cartridge used by the US) and are not used by any state forces (which would mean they can't be owned)?

The standard tribesy question: are you being ignorant or obtuse?

Well, let's move on, as its clear tribesy will argue a country that kills you on sight if you have anything but a one shot, .17 caliber derringer that took five years and 50k to acquire legally hasn't banned guns.

CR

[Redleg]

Oh what fun.... The article from the Mexico Law

Artículo 11.- Las armas, municiones y materia para el uso exclusivo del Ejército, Armada y Fuerza
Aérea, son las siguientes:
a).- Revólveres calibre .357 Magnum y los superiores a .38 Especial.
b).- Pistolas calibre 9 mm. Parabellum, Luger y similares, las .38 Super y Comando, y las de calibres
superiores.
c).- Fusiles, mosquetones, carabinas y tercerolas en calibre .223, 7 mm., 7. 62 mm. y carabinas
calibre .30 en todos sus modelos.
d).- Pistolas, carabinas y fusiles con sistema de ráfaga, sub-ametralladoras, metralletas y
ametralladoras en todos sus calibres.
e).- Escopetas con cañón de longitud inferior a 635 mm. (25), las de calibre superior al 12 (.729 ó 18.
5 mm) y las lanzagases, con excepción de las de uso industrial.
f).- Municiones para las armas anteriores y cartuchos con artificios especiales como trazadores,
incendiarios, perforantes, fumígenos, expansivos de gases y los cargados con postas superiores al 00
(.84 cms. de diámetro) para escopeta.
g).- Cañones, piezas de artillería, morteros y carros de combate con sus aditamentos, accesorios,
proyectiles y municiones.
h).- Proyectiles-cohete, torpedos, granadas, bombas, minas, cargas de profundidad, lanzallamas y
similares, así como los aparatos, artificios y máquinas para su lanzamiento.
i).- Bayonetas, sables y lanzas.
j).- Navíos, submarinos, embarcaciones e hidroaviones para la guerra naval y su armamento.
k).- Aeronaves de guerra y su armamento.
l).- Artificios de guerra, gases y substancias químicas de aplicación exclusivamente militar, y los
ingenios diversos para su uso por las fuerzas armadas.
En general, todas las armas, municiones y materiales destinados exclusivamente para la guerra.
Las de este destino, mediante la justificación de la necesidad, podrán autorizarse por la Secretaría de
la Defensa Nacional, individualmente o como corporación, a quienes desempeñen empleos o cargos de
la Federación, del Distrito Federal, de los Estados o de los Municipios.

http://www.diputados.gob.mx/LeyesBiblio/pdf/102.pdf

Basically what it says concerning the arguement about .223 caliber weapons is that the caliber is for the exculisive use of the military in Mexico.

[Tribesman]

No, you're again wrong.

A ".22" is only a .22 caliber round - most commonly the .22LR. It does not include every cartridge that starts with .22xxx under the sun. A .22 round is not a .223 round, and so .22 is not an umbrella term that fits a .223 or a .224 caliber.

Lets see , a nice little thing from "guns and ammo" on .22 rifles

What does all this mean? Faster cartridges are going to wear out barrels more quickly than slower cartridges. There is no real threshold that I'm aware of, but the very fast .22s like the .22-250, .220 Swift and .223 WSSM are going to wear out barrels much faster than milder .22s like the .222 and .223. The .223 WSSM has been reported to be a barrel burner, and it might be in some rifles, but compared to what? The cartridge is so new that I think this is a premature rap. From what I've seen in the field this past season I don't think there's much difference between it and the .22-250 or .220 Swift.

did you get this bit
but the very fast .22s like the .22-250, .220 Swift and .223 WSSM
and this bit
faster than milder .22s like the .222 and .223.
So Rabbit you is talking bollox , you can neck down a .303 cartridge to take a .22 bullet and it is a .22 round and the gun that uses it is a .22 gun .

Well, let's move on, as its clear tribesy will argue a country that kills you on sight if you have anything but a one shot, .17 caliber derringer that took five years and 50k to acquire legally hasn't banned guns.

And I would be right because a one shot pistol is a gun isn't it . Try again rabbit .
Oh I forgot , for the sake of this topic banning private gun ownership does not mean banning private gun ownership .


And just for rabbit .

High Standard HDM (Suppressed Pistol, .22 LR) (Navy SEALs and USMC Force Recon)
Ruger Mk II (Integrally Suppressed variant; Automatic Pistol, .22 LR) (Navy SEALs)

[HoreTore]

Anyways, I suppose a good example is Brazil - very, very strict firearms control in one of the world's largest economies, and yet I somehow don't think the murder rate is that good.

Take a look at the slum area of Brazil and you'll see why they have crime.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Take a look at the slum area of Brazil and you'll see why they have crime.

They have very strict firearms control laws - but still manage to have 25% more gun deaths than the United States.

[HoreTore]

They have very strict firearms control laws - but still manage to have 25% more gun deaths than the United States.

As I said, take a look at their slum areas.