Then again, maybe in the right cases, the death penalty should be allowed

[PBI]

Oh and my point was that I cannot see where, as an atheist(who sees humans as the kind of soulless biochemical robots), one draws the value of life from but that's a different topic and I'm sorry for almost deriving this one.

Actually, one could argue that human life is more valuable for an atheist, since they believe there is no afterlife so when someone is gone, they're gone. However, it is, as you say, off topic.

Regarding the death penalty, as others have said the purpose of the justice system is not to exact vengeance on behalf of the victim. Of course, if someone I love were murdered, while I would hope I would have the strength to forgive the murderer, in truth I would probably want to kill the murderer in revenge. However I don't see why it's the job of the state to exact that revenge for me. If I were sufficiently determined to exact revenge, I should be willing to do the job myself rather than expecting someone else to become a murderer in cold blood for me. If I truly regarded that prison were not enough of a punishment, doing a prison sentence of my own for exacting revenge would surely be a small price to pay.

The state has already done its job by locking the guy up for life, thus preventing him commiting any further crimes.

[yesdachi]

I have been to this party before and I love it. There is nothing that can make people more alive than talking about death.

I look at the situation from 3 angles. Protection of the people, the cost of the protection and the morality of the consequences of the protection.

Bad people need to be removed from society to protect the good people. If the bad people cannot be rehabilitated or at least learn their lesson after a time, they stay in prison forever, ensuring that society is protected from them forever.

This is where the cost of the protection kicks in for me; IIRC 20% of Michigan’s state budget is spent on jails and prisons and the social impact of having a so many people in prison cant be measured, but how many prison guards turn into jerks after dealing with so many hardcore criminals everyday, how many rehabilitateable inmates are not given a chance because they are influenced by the worst offenders in existence? There are an average of 6-7 hundred murders and 5,000+ rapes in Michigan each year. Other inmates, guards and society in general would be better off with the people who have committed those crimes gone, permanently.

From a moral perspective, I feel bad about it but I simply don’t care about someone who can not be trusted to live next door to my family. rapists, murders, child molesters stop being people and become animals or monsters even, when they commit those types of crimes and just like I don’t have a problem putting down a rabid dog to permanently protect society from it I do not have a problem permanently protecting society from a human who has turned into a monster, is a bad influence on the people around them and a fiscal drag on the state. MI spends nearly 2 billion a year on prisons, that’s more than we spend on public universities. Spending money to keep monsters alive while cutting funds that educate our children is counter productive to me and overrides any moral objection I could have to the death penalty.

That said I do think our judicial system is a mess and there is no “speedy trial” and the current process to convict someone for almost anything is unbelievably long and drawn out and we do occasionally catch the wrong guy, etc. Michigan hasn’t had a death penalty execution since 1837 and I don’t think we are ready to make a change so I am pretty much just talking about my own thoughts on the subject.

[Ronin]

Sometimes there are crimes that stir up our thirst for bloody revenge.
but revenge is an emotional response, it does not equal justice and is not a valid motive.

The justice system is supposed to dish out justice as best as it can, it´s not there to fulfill the blood lust one might feel.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Sometimes there are crimes that stir up our thirst for bloody revenge.
but revenge is an emotional response, it does not equal justice and is not a valid motive.

But what is justice? It differs. However, justice is supposed to be fair. In my opinion, a death sentence for a premediated murder is fair.

[Ronin]

But what is justice? It differs. However, justice is supposed to be fair. In my opinion, a death sentence for a premediated murder is fair.

a death sentence is a premeditated killing also....

in my view if a society codifies in it´s laws that a certain behavior is incorrect (i.e. murder) then you can´t use the same behavior as punishment....that would be hypocrisy to say the very least.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So no jailing of kidnappers then?

There goes that argument.

Anyways, revenge can sometimes achieve justice. If justice is someone being executed for a murder, does it matter who shoots the bullet?

CR

[Tribesman]

dodedodedobedoodeedoobedebeebededo
Capital puinishment right or wrong ?
No but what about , no but in this case ....simple question , are you in favor of the death penalty and do you have faith in the judiciatry to get it right every time ?
If the answer is no then drop the bollox because once you make little get outs then you don't feic no more
Tuigim , nach dtuigeann tu ?

[Ronin]

So no jailing of kidnappers then?

There goes that argument.

Anyways, revenge can sometimes achieve justice. If justice is someone being executed for a murder, does it matter who shoots the bullet?

CR

I was not aware that kidnappers gave a specific date for release of their captives..

...now......stepping out of that joke...I don´t see how you equate a prison sentence to a kidnapping...it seems like a silly comparison.....

societies generally consider killing a fellow human has wrong....I fail to remember a society that considers jail as a punishment as wrong

[Husar]

societies generally consider killing a fellow human has wrong....I fail to remember a society that considers jail as a punishment as wrong

That's a strawman or whatever, societies also generally see locking someone up against their will as wrong, so locking people up against their will should not be a form of punishment if we go by your argumentation.

I tend to agree with Tribesman though(who would've guessed).

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

a death sentence is a premeditated killing also....

Exactly! Fair is fair.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I was not aware that kidnappers gave a specific date for release of their captives..

...now......stepping out of that joke...I don´t see how you equate a prison sentence to a kidnapping...it seems like a silly comparison.....

Really? Nothing about being held against your will ringing a bell?

societies generally consider killing a fellow human has wrong....I fail to remember a society that considers jail as a punishment as wrong

So? Your argument is based on pure populism, and ignores the fact that the vast US society doesn't have a huge problem with capital punishment. And it ignores the fact that a lot of bleeding hearts hate jail as punishment.

If you're going to use what society wants, we'd have only to take a vote and decide that way. And child rapists could be killed as well as murderers, in the US.

CR

[Ironside]

This is where the cost of the protection kicks in for me; IIRC 20% of Michigan’s state budget is spent on jails and prisons and the social impact of having a so many people in prison cant be measured, but how many prison guards turn into jerks after dealing with so many hardcore criminals everyday, how many rehabilitateable inmates are not given a chance because they are influenced by the worst offenders in existence? There are an average of 6-7 hundred murders and 5,000+ rapes in Michigan each year. Other inmates, guards and society in general would be better off with the people who have committed those crimes gone, permanently.

Execution for (saving) money? Why do I find that there's something wrong there?

Anyway, unless you got really serious problems in the US, I assume that you're not the nation with the most prisoners in the world (well offical statistics, some dictorships like China might beat you in the unofficial stats) due to murderers and rapists.

So even if you're doing execution for budget reasons it still won't work...

[LittleGrizzly]

I hear it costs more to kill them with the all the appeals, but you can't really avoid them if you want to make sure you've got the right. Basically if you want to kill someone you have to be prepared to pay more....

[Ronin]

Exactly! Fair is fair.

no...wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it...

[Ronin]

So? Your argument is based on pure populism, and ignores the fact that the vast US society doesn't have a huge problem with capital punishment. And it ignores the fact that a lot of bleeding hearts hate jail as punishment.

If you're going to use what society wants, we'd have only to take a vote and decide that way. And child rapists could be killed as well as murderers, in the US.

I don´t see how the majority opinion of the US population has any bearing on this discussion....

as I understood it this topic was about if Capital Punishment was "right" or not..not if it should be aplied on the USA or any other specific country

I content that a society that deems that killing another human being as the gravest crime there is, falls face first onto it´s own hypocrisy when it condemns the killer himself to death....you disagree, fine..

as far as the American population, they can do whatever they want in their country...hell...you can impose the death penalty for jaywalking if you want....that doesn´t concern me, since I don´t live there and don´t intend to visit....and you won´t see me protesting against it outside the local US embassy either.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It matters because you brought up the fact that groups of people are against it. If you want to go that way, bringing up the fact that the US supports the death penalty is reasonable.

I content that a society that deems that killing another human being as the gravest crime there is, falls face first onto it´s own hypocrisy when it condemns the killer himself to death....you disagree, fine..

No, there is not moral equivalence between a crime and a punishment.

CR

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Oh and my point was that I cannot see where, as an atheist(who sees humans as the kind of soulless biochemical robots), one draws the value of life from but that's a different topic and I'm sorry for almost deriving this one.

Firstly, I'm an atheist and afaik you aren't a soulless biochemical robot.
Just because I have no belief in God or an afterlife, doesn't mean that I don't have an animus or soul... But this is all metaphysical speculation, so Back to Topic!

I am anti-death penalty for a number of reasons. Firstly, no matter what the crime, if capital punishment is implemented this gives some people, most probably the government, or select members of the Justice department, the power of life and death over everyone. This means if they believe you guilty for a crime you can be executed. This is giving too much power to those people in these positions, and power corrupts...

This leads directly to my second point. Humanity is most definitely not perfect. Saying executing people was acceptable, did you get the right person, or was the person in fact in the right?There are always going to be mistakes, it is a lot easier to release someone from prison than it is to resurrect someone. Or so I've been told.

Continuing on, the argument that the death penalty is worse than life in prison. I'm sure that not everyone is like me (IE: ridiculously hyperactive, has too much energy, can never be completely still, loves sport etc etc.). However, having your every move restricted is not going to be fun or easy for anyone. There is no guarantee that the criminal will feel remorse, however if they do there is a lot of time to think about it. Death ends everything, all the dreams and hopes for the future (although life imprisonment would do this to), but also any time spent contemplating their crime, any chance for rehabilition into society. The only time the death penalty could be definitively worse than a life of incarcaration, would be if they suffered onehundredfold in the fires of hell, which as I've said I don't believe.

To me the death sentence is a way of venting the victims family's, friends, and societys' spleen on an unfortunate criminal.

There is no justification for ending another person's life.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

no...wrong is wrong no matter who is doing it...

So we shouldn't imprison kidnappers?

[Viking]

Executing people is all well and good

[...]

There is no justification for ending another person's life.

Hm..

[CrossLOPER]

So we shouldn't imprison kidnappers?

The point is, that you can release prisoners and shower them with a lump sum if you're wrong. You can't raise executed convicts from the dead.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The point is, that you can release prisoners and shower them with a lump sum if you're wrong. You can't raise executed convicts from the dead.

That is my only problem with the death penalty. But what if you have irrefutable evidence - such as, hypothetically, if a person stabs someone to death in view of the entire court. Then is it justified?

[Husar]

You can't raise executed convicts from the dead.

Just a matter of time...

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Hm..

(It was a figure of speech... *shifty eyes*)

In all seriousness though, I'm sure you know what I mean.

[BigTex]

I am anti-death penalty for a number of reasons. Firstly, no matter what the crime, if capital punishment is implemented this gives some people, most probably the government, or select members of the Justice department, the power of life and death over everyone. This means if they believe you guilty for a crime you can be executed. This is giving too much power to those people in these positions, and power corrupts...

Last I checked, in the USA, you are convicted by a jurry of your peer's. Not the government, the justice department, or the crazed district attorney. People you could have walked past down the street convict you. Honestly if every member of that jurry believes without a reasonable doubt you did it, then there's a pretty good chance it's true.

Now I'm in favor of an express lane. If 3 or more eye witnesses saw what you did, then get rid of all those appeals. Don't pass GO don't collect 200$'s, go directly to the front of the line.

You know there was always that african tribal method that I've always prefered. Let the family of the victim decide his punishment, to live or to die, directly in the hands of those affected the most.

[yesdachi]

Execution for (saving) money? Why do I find that there's something wrong there?

Anyway, unless you got really serious problems in the US, I assume that you're not the nation with the most prisoners in the world (well offical statistics, some dictorships like China might beat you in the unofficial stats) due to murderers and rapists.

So even if you're doing execution for budget reasons it still won't work...

I am not trying to compare the number of prisoners in china to Michigan or even the US, what I am trying to make note of is our prisoners cost over 30k each per year, even more for the elderly due to failing health and the related medical treatments. If we executed the rapists, murders and child molesters each year we would save at least 200 million dollars a year on just new offenders. The stats are unknown for the deterrent factor on future years but that’s an easy 10% reduction on the budget by just getting rid of this years offenders and we might stand a chance of rehabilitating some of the inmates now that they are not stuck in a cell next to the nastiest criminals around. And I have to believe that the guards are going to be a little nicer to their families when they get home after not dealing with monsters all day.

Yes, I know it can be argued that it costs more to execute someone than it does to sentence them to life in prison (lifers get appeals too, I would like to see a real, unbiased report on it) but I already mentioned that I think the system is lame. Add the cost of all the things a death penalty prisoner gets that are in addition to what a lifer gets then amortize it over the cost of their life expectancy, I have a difficult time believing it can be that different. Fix the system, relieve the burden and protect society – there’s my platform for the next senate race!

[Conradus]

Now I'm in favor of an express lane. If 3 or more eye witnesses saw what you did, then get rid of all those appeals. Don't pass GO don't collect 200$'s, go directly to the front of the line.

If eye witnesses were ever relieable, we migth do that. But the memory is so easily misguided, or the gaps are filled by clever advocates.

[BigTex]

If eye witnesses were ever relieable, we migth do that. But the memory is so easily misguided, or the gaps are filled by clever advocates.

That is why there should be a certain number of eyewitnesses required (for the "express" lane). When 3 4 or more people are telling what occured during a hienous and despicable act. Then you know, I'd be willing to bet the house their telling the truth.

[Conradus]

That is why there should be a certain number of eyewitnesses required (for the "express" lane). When 3 4 or more people are telling what occured during a hienous and despicable act. Then you know, I'd be willing to bet the house their telling the truth.

Well, we both realize that the odds of several people telling exactly the same are , well, close to zero.

[Husar]

BigTex, sorry, but what a load of bollox, the family of the victim is by no means objective, letting them decide sounds like a bad idea to me. It's also probably similar with a jury, they can have prejudices etc etc. Of course that also goes for judges but they're supposedly tested and get paid for trying to be objective, at least in theory.

And eyewitness accounts are not always relibale either, especially for a quick solution, what if the killer pays them to frame someone else and have that someone else executed quickly and the case closed?
Or did I misunderstand that bit about the express lane?

[Don Corleone]

I apologize for wakening the bloodlust in everyone. That was not my intent. One, I wanted to voice an unfathomable anger at the crime itself. Two, I was actually talking about the cousin as the one to find his way to the gallows. Third, my post, in reality, was a call for vigilantism, something of which I am neither proud nor remorseful, sadly.

Catholic dogma teaches that enacting violent fantasies in your mind, indulging your bloodlust, is almost as bad as actually acting upon them. You open a door through which all sorts of boogiemen might creep out. I'm not certain that I believe I'm opening a gate to the lower planes, but I do think I'm channeling parts of my primordial self that are better left buried.

I KNOW, in my heart of hearts and in the deepest recesses of my mind, that execution as a form of vengance, is wrong. I know this. But I'd be lying if I told you all that I'm motivated by trying to protect society. That is an added benefit, certainly, but in reality, I want to visit my wrath upon all this scum that feels entitled to rape, torture, maim and murder women and children. And then I want to get my hands on the scum that enables them...the ones that help them procure their victims, and the lawyers that absolve them of their crimes and help them evade justice, in essence, helping them to rape, torture, maim and kill again.

In short, I am way out of bounds. I apologize, and if anyone would care to play confessor to help me before I stumble too far, be they of the faith or of the mind, I would appreciate PMs. I know that dwelling on vengance to this degree is deeply unhealthy, and I also know that I'm probably not strong enough to leave it behind on my own.