Phalanx vx. Phalanx in EB 1.1

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hi,

I have the impression that Phalanxes (and especially Pezhetairoi) have become considerably weaker in 1.1 in comparison to previous versions. Whenever I fight with my Makedonians (4 x Pez, 1 x Argy.) against similarly equipped Ptolemaian armies, I sustain heavy casualties. In 0.81, and I think in 1.0 as well, I could just put the Phalanx on guard mode and leave them alone. They wouldn't take more than 10% casualties. But now, the enemy always rams into my Phalanx, and plugs a hole in it, they start sword-fighting, and after a certain point, a great deal of the soldiers wander around (much more than in previous versions), and they die in droves.

Am I doing something wrong? Am I just to slow with the "Hammer", or is there a certain trick? I need help.

[Tellos Athenaios]

You may have discovered enemy army composition changed somewhat from 0.8/1.0 to 1.1 ? I dunno really I try to babysit my battle as much as possible; only to fail miserably at that. Somehow I still manage to get away with not too many casualties; even though it looks horrid..

[Fondor_Yards]

Well how do you deploy your pikemen? How deep, what supporting troops, in what order, and such. Also what TA said, what are typical make-up of Ptolemaic armies? Machimoi pikes would be able to win if they got past your pikes since they have axes, Klerouchikon Agema might do the same with just pure better stats.

[TWFanatic]

Do you consider the Macedonian phalanx units too weak? They are virtually invulnerable from the front, impervious to missiles and kill with speed and ferocity of Chuck Norris and Rambo combined (with a dose of Jet Lee). Honestly, the levy phalangites of the Hellenes can defeat the elite of almost everyone else with contemptuous ease so long as they are willing to fight on your terms; e.g., from the front (and the AI almost always does).

[Maion Maroneios]

I haven't experienced anything like that, to be honest. It must be the fact that the AI field armies of better quality, as Tellos stated.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well how do you deploy your pikemen? How deep, what supporting troops, in what order, and such. Also what TA said, what are typical make-up of Ptolemaic armies? Machimoi pikes would be able to win if they got past your pikes since they have axes, Klerouchikon Agema might do the same with just pure better stats.

-------------------------T h r a i k i o i P e l t a s t a i----------------------------
--Kuarothoroi Pezhetaroi Pezhetairoi Pezheitairoi Pezhetairoi Argyraspides Kuarothoroi--
---------Thureophoroi Agrianes Peltastai Makedonikoi Agrianes Thureophoroi----------

-----------T o x o t a i K r e t i k o i---------T o x o t a i K r e t i k o i--------------

----------------Hippeis Thessalikoi---General---Hippeis Thessalikoi-------------------
----Prodromoi-----------------------------------------------------Prodromoi--------

I changed every pike unit in EDB to a depth of 8 men. So both my and the enemy's pikes are 8 men deep. The typical Ptolemaic makeup is some 3 Klerouchoi, 2 Machimoi, 2 Klerouchon Agema, 4 - 8 Arabian light infantry, two Generals, another unit of cavalry like Prodromoi, one unit of Arabian slingers and the rest is random Machimoi / Thureophoroi / Thorakitai.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well, what do you say now Fondor?

[Fondor_Yards]

Sorry, hadn't checked this since your last post. There's nothing wrong with your formation, thats as good as it really gets. Neither their pikes or normal infantry should be pushing past your pikes that much. Try switching your pikemen out of defensive mode when fighting their pikes, that is suppose to help. My pike vs pike battles tend not to last long so I can't tell you if it helps. I guess just don't let them stay and only fight your pikes, flank them with your good supporting infantry as fast as you can. Not much else I can see/say.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I changed every pike unit in EDB to a depth of 8 men.

And I suppose that couldn't explain your observations, also?

[Ezephkiel]

Do you click on your pikemen to attack, or just leave the enemy to engage. I've found with most units, if you leave them on hold formation just let the enemy engage, they tend to get pushed back easier and bunch up/distort their formation.

Giving them a simple attack order ususally rectifies this (always happens with hoplites and i've used it with phalanx) They tend to push back after that and the odds are a bit more even.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

@ Fondor Yards, Ezephkiel:

Yes I leave them in guard mode and let them be attacked. That worked best back in 0.81, and in 1.0 also. The problem with switching guard mode off is that your line will get disrupted then. They'll start wheeling around and turn towards the center of the enemy syntagma, and that looks weird. The enemy then starts to cut down the exposed flanks of each pike unit.

Plus I believe to have observed that the usual enemy strategos' suicidal charges against your pikes are nowadays less suicidal. Wherever the enemy general is attacking your line, it's almost sure that he and his surrounding troops will cut a hole in your line.


@ Tellos Athenaios:

Well, 6 men deep formation get torn apart even faster than 8 men deep formation, so no I don't think that could be part of the problem.

[Tellos Athenaios]

@ Fondor Yards, Ezephkiel:

Yes I leave them in guard mode and let them be attacked. That worked best back in 0.81, and in 1.0 also. The problem with switching guard mode off is that your line will get disrupted then. They'll start wheeling around and turn towards the center of the enemy syntagma, and that looks weird. The enemy then starts to cut down the exposed flanks of each pike unit.

Plus I believe to have observed that the usual enemy strategos' suicidal charges against your pikes are nowadays less suicidal. Wherever the enemy general is attacking your line, it's almost sure that he and his surrounding troops will cut a hole in your line.


@ Tellos Athenaios:

Well, 6 men deep formation get torn apart even faster than 8 men deep formation, so no I don't think that could be part of the problem.

The same for 6 men deep among the enemy as well (basically reverting to Vanilla values) ? Or did you do that already?

[Ezephkiel]

I wouldn't take them off guard mode whatever, unless trying to use the swords.

I think its because the enemy is engaging whilst they're standing their with no orders, i've seen it on multiple units, sometimes hoplites getting scrunched into tiny balls of men because they're just trying to hold position, as soon as i order them to attack they spread out and start pushing match, this game does tend to be a large shoving match most of the time.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

So I had a large phalanx battle today with guard mode off. Never again. The enemy pikes rammed my line, and it was a slugfeast. I suffered much more casualties than with guard mode on. I really had to hurry up with the flanking... Not to mention that all the pike units drafted to the middle, disrupting themselves from the flank-guard Kuruathoroi. Next battle I'll try to click attack.

Tellos:
No I didn't try that. And this is no option I must say, cause I just don't like 6-men-deep-syntagmai. They look ugly, and it's only logical that a thinner line gets broken faster than a thicker line. Yes I could just revert every phalanx unit to 6-men-depth, so that I can use 8-men-depth while the enemy would be stuck to 6-men-depth. But that is a) unfair towards the enemy, b) makes the enemy line to long, c) is way too annoying for me to get them 8-men-deep each in battle.

Edit: How did you EB guys get the Ptolemies to use so much pikes in EB 1.1?

[Ibrahim]

I usually deploy those troops in squarish blocks (as anyone who fought me in custom battle will say). the idea beig that the push through quickly(also helps in manuevering), make a gap, and the cavalry pours in. since I use multiple pikemen(duh?) I do no worry about the epilektoi ruining me. its devastating to the enemy KH, just like it can thrash a roman legion (as burakuku would tell you) (I lost anyways-darn cavalry battles+no pausing= disaster).

besides, the levies are very good-they can easily bash a formation of epilektoi. cover the flanks and all will be well. you should see what a pezhetairoi unit does.