Yes, the palestianians are indeed the only bad guys in the middle east.

[Incongruous]

Hamas is the democratically elected result of decades of U.S backed Israeli opression, nothing more. You see there is no equating the predicament of the two sides. Israel is a recognised nation-state, the world has refused Palestine that right, and by its support for Israel the U.S has stripped away its historical pretensions. As I keep saying redleg I fully realise my own nations cooperation with Israel, but the U.S was the prime mover there. You had all the power after WWII and you failed to take the steps to prevent the atrocity of zionism claiming statehood. The Jews deserve a state, well why? Why did the Palestinians have to lose everything to assuage your guilt? If it was not about guilt, what was it about?
The installment of a friendly regional power to dominate the mid-east?

The idea that all atrocities are of the same magnitude is false, the amount of carange inflicted upon the Palestinian people is an elephant when compared to the destruction inflicted by Hamas on Israel. I hear Israelis can get an education and running water. But you will continue to deny that Israel is the main offender because...
I don't know. But it is something which rankles with Muslims across the globe, it a rallying cry to blow up innocent westerners and those unfortunate to be nearby.
But it is not the only reason, it is also the U.S's continued attempt to divide the mid-east, yep divide Redleg, divide. You know what I mean so you can apply any term you feel apt to that meaning.
As for my use of racism, again there are degrees of it, aparthied is at an extreme end as is nazism, what is happening in Palestine is just another extreme degree of it, lets say state enforced racism.

Why are you so fixated on my non commital to aristotelean generalisations of politcal community?
"It's so much easier to blame the U.S" umm ok, I'm not some idiotic child Redleg, I actually to think and read up on things. I'm not some damned mouth piece of soundbite media.

Oh and Seamus, what makes you think

[Redleg]

Hamas is the democratically elected result of decades of U.S backed Israeli opression, nothing more. You see there is no equating the predicament of the two sides. Israel is a recognised nation-state, the world has refused Palestine that right, and by its support for Israel the U.S has stripped away its historical pretensions. As I keep saying redleg I fully realise my own nations cooperation with Israel, but the U.S was the prime mover there. You had all the power after WWII and you failed to take the steps to prevent the atrocity of zionism claiming statehood. The Jews deserve a state, well why? Why did the Palestinians have to lose everything to assuage your guilt? If it was not about guilt, what was it about?

Oh poor misguided Bopa - the United States did not have all the power after WW2. It was also shared with the old USSR. THe middle-east quirimare developed in part because of the two compeating superpowers, it also developed in part because of policies after WW1 with the British and French Mandates. And as I stated before and you have failed to read - it was the collective guild of the world, primaily of Europe. In fact the United States was really not a big help to Israel until the 1973 war - Britian and France share that distintion. So until you actually learn some history on Israel's foundation - its just to easy to tear you anti-US stance apart concerning the founding of the Israel state.

It seems to me that you don't fully realize the situation when you continue to point to one nation as the problem. To bad its been interesting to demonstrate that your position is primirily one of Anti- versus any real understanding.

The installment of a friendly regional power to dominate the mid-east?

LOL - the creation of Israel has a bitter history - the installment of a friendly regional power was not initially one of them.

The idea that all atrocities are of the same magnitude is false, the amount of carange inflicted upon the Palestinian people is an elephant when compared to the destruction inflicted by Hamas on Israel. I hear Israelis can get an education and running water. But you will continue to deny that Israel is the main offender because...

Your problem there Bopa is a failure to actually read - I refuse to claim that only one side is at fault. It takes two to tangle - and the Palenstine Authority and all its previous identies are guiltly of insuring the conflict continues.

I don't know. But it is something which rankles with Muslims across the globe, it a rallying cry to blow up innocent westerners and those unfortunate to be nearby.

Yep and its just as false in their doing so.

But it is not the only reason, it is also the U.S's continued attempt to divide the mid-east, yep divide Redleg, divide. You know what I mean so you can apply any term you feel apt to that meaning.
As for my use of racism, again there are degrees of it, aparthied is at an extreme end as is nazism, what is happening in Palestine is just another extreme degree of it, lets say state enforced racism.

Again the United States does not divide the Middle-East. You do understand what the term divide means do you not? Divide means to seperate. In what why has the United States attempted to seperate the middle-east. The nations were formed after WW1 as part of the British and French Mandates after WW1, and finallized between the World Wars and immediately after. Before the United States was truely involved in the region. Somewhere around the late 1940's we began to get involved in internal politics of selected nations to prevent Soviet takeover by proxy of those nations, and unfortunetly for the current world we also attempted to control a few of them. Now where does divide equate into that equation.

Again racism is racism - all of it is intolerable to me. I also see the racism that the Palenstines equate back to the Israelies in their text books. So I have little support for your arguement here when you discount the preaching to childern to do suicide bomb another culture.

Why are you so fixated on my non commital to aristotelean generalisations of politcal community?
"It's so much easier to blame the U.S" umm ok, I'm not some idiotic child Redleg, I actually to think and read up on things. I'm not some damned mouth piece of soundbite media.

To bad your rethoric is just that of a soundbite media. You focus on one side of a complex issue demanding that one side committ to change without acknowledging that the other side also has to change. You blame one nation over all - without looking deep into how the situation was created in the first place. You incorrectly blame the United States for the creation of the state of Israel - which I find extremely funny given Truman's thoughts on the creation of the Nation of Israel.

So read up a bit before you blame the United States. Its almost as pathic as those that claim the United States built nuclear weapons for Israel.......

Oh and Seamus, what makes you think[/QUOTE]

[Incongruous]

Hahah, ok whatever Redeg I admit it, I am a complete fool with no understanding of the Palestinian problem. You got me!
Because anyone who actually reads up this can't possibly take a different point of view on it can they? So I must be a complete idiot right?

Again I still do not understand your fixation with the good old nature of the political community philosophy, explain?
But perhaps another time, this exchange is over, since I obviously have to go and read the Oxford English Dictionary.

[Redleg]

Hahah, ok whatever Redeg I admit it, I am a complete fool with no understanding of the Palestinian problem. You got me!
Because anyone who actually reads up this can't possibly take a different point of view on it can they? So I must be a complete idiot right?

Never stated you were an idiot - only that you can not have the reality based viewpoint that you claim if your only looking at one side. So if you wish to be flippant at least understand the position that I have stated. Reality requires an individual to look at all aspects - not just what they wish to look at.

Again I still do not understand your fixation with the good old nature of the political community philosophy, explain?

I detest one-sided viewpoints that claim they have all the answers to the situation, especially one that uses anger rethoric that makes claims that are not founded in actual facts. So if you want to convince me that Israel is wrong - you have alreadly lost, since I alreadly believe that Israel is wrong, your problem is that you have only argued by attack the United States involvement in the situation. Leaving out what the Palenstine Authority and its precedors have also done to continue and escalate the violence. Along with a claim of realistic viewpoint just made me want to tweak your arguement to the point to show how acidine it was.

has the United States made mistakes in the middle-east - sure we have, but lets stick to the ones that are true, not the made up stuff that one side uses to justify their violence. There is enough done wrong that justifies feelings of ill will toward the United States that makes the made-up positions unnecessary.

But perhaps another time, this exchange is over, since I obviously have to go and read the Oxford English Dictionary.

Feel free, and leave the little red book rethoric out of the discussion.