OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[Ignoramus]

Ituralde. I auto-resolved the battle, as he was away, and had given me leave to control his character.

[Ignoramus]

http://www.mizus.com/files/pbm/LOTR-1122-1.zip

Tried to assault Alexandria. It went...badly.

I should have a battle report up within the day. If possible, I'd like Kosmas' whereabouts to be unknown until I post it.

What were you thinking?

[Northnovas]

Last browsing shutting it down soon.
Will be out of play for the next 2 weeks though no one will notice.
Andres is the official spoke person for the House including swearing and breaking oaths paper work has already been submitted through channels.

[OverKnight]

I'm noticing, have a fun vacation!

[Privateerkev]

For those of you using the Caliph in your stories, keep in mind that I just killed him.

I apologize ahead of time if that messes up any stories but he insisted on joining the Jihad and wandering around Antioch.

[Ignoramus]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

[Privateerkev]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

spending priorities are such:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

Therefore: private armies > buildings

According to that, it seems you can't spend a dime on one thing until the items before it are satisfied. It's the thing that compels you to OOC to maintain the "props" to our avatar's power.

At least that is the way I read the rules. I'm more than willing to settle it IC or OOC. OOC we can just wait for TC to rule on it. IC, we can declare it a "rule dispute" and let the Rules dictate our next actions.

[Ramses II CP]

Regarding breaking the rules, there's nothing in the rules which say you can't build before replenishing armies.

With all due respect, I hope you're asking a question instead of proceeding on your own interpretation of the rules again.

[GeneralHankerchief]

For those of you using the Caliph in your stories, keep in mind that I just killed him.

Different character. The game calls him Sultan, the players call him Caliph. Therefore, he's still alive.

[Privateerkev]

Different character. The game calls him Sultan, the players call him Caliph. Therefore, he's still alive.

He had the title "Caliph of Cairo." Of course there is now a new Caliph, but the old one is still dead. At least according to SS. You guys can feel free to ignore or retcon that if you wish but I thought it was something you'd want to know.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Then ignore it I shall.

[Privateerkev]

Then ignore it I shall.

My caliph can beat up your caliph.

[Ignoramus]

With all due respect, I hope you're asking a question instead of proceeding on your own interpretation of the rules again.

With all due respect, I don't think that's very complimentary.

Here are the powers regarding the Megas:

Megas Logothetes:
Requirements: Must have been elected Megas Logothetes
Influence: During Emergency Sessions called during his term, 2 + up to 5 Stat Influence, or the Senator's normal Influence, whichever is higher. For every term of 6 turns or more that a Senator serves as Megas Logothetes, he will receive a permanent +1 bonus to his Influence and a permanent increase of +1 to the maximum Stat Influence of his feudal rank. This bonus is cumulative for Senators who serve multiple terms as Megas Logothetes. The in-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus. The post-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus or to any Senator who ceased to be Megas Logothetes because he was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Megas Logothetes are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Senator’s other feudal ranks.
(2) Unless otherwise restricted by the rules, the Megas Logothetes can do anything he wants inside the game except use console cheats, which may be used only as specifically allowed by the Rules. Edicts are only binding on the Megas Logothetes to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
Limitations on Powers:
(1) The Megas Logothetes must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. With the exception of Prioritized Buildings, the Megas Logothetes is not required to build anything. However, if anything is built in a settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Megas Logothetes can build whatever he likes. The Megas Logothetes may upgrade a province’s walls at any time unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the Senator who owns the settlement.
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.
(3) The Megas Logothetes must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(4) (4) The Megas Logothetes cannot disband a unit in a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet if the owner of the a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet gives orders which prevent such a disbanding. This Limitation does not apply to merging depleted units, which the Megas Logothetes may do freely.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.

I am not trying to skew the rules for my benefit. In fact, the building of the church in Yerevan was not trying to manipulate the rules. It's jolly hard to remember every clause of the rules, especially where they don't exist.

[Rowan]

(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.

Actually it does say so in the rule 4.3:

4.3 – Army Replenishment: If a Private or Royal Army falls below the minimum strength level, all military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Army to minimum strength before money can be spent on other recruitment, unless the owner agrees otherwise. In the event of a conflict, a Royal Army takes priority over a Private Army. This rule does not apply to armies involved in a Civil War.

which is where PK gets his building order.

Edit: I think a "Megas cheat sheet" would be quite handy. Basically a list of things for Megas with all the rule interplays such as this written out.

Something like:
1. Post new save & report,
2. Wait 24 hrs,
3. Move
4. Replenish armies
5. build & other recruit
6. Press End Turn,
7. GOTO 1).

[Ignoramus]

It says that Rule 4.3 takes priority over prioritized buildings, not ordinary buildings. As I have no more prioritized buildings for my term, I can build normal buildings over army replenishment.

[Rowan]

Ok, I can see how you could read it that way. I think we just have to wait for TCs interpretation.

[OverKnight]

Ignoramus, if a private or royal army needs to brought up to minimum strength, you have to do it. Not only does it have precedence over priority building, it has it over any building. At least that's how I am reading it.

I was in a similar position in the test game. There was no way IC that I would have funded the resurreection of the French King's army once he had destroyed it against the Prince's allies, but OOC I had to follow the rules.

The armies rule is one of the few of the OOC non-partisan things a Megas has to follow, but it is very important to the balance and nature of the game that we do so.

[Zim]

I actually read those rules the same way Iggy did. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over prioritized buildings, which happen to take precedent over regular construction. So the last time this came up Iggy should have filled armies before building Makedonios' prioritized building, and since he had to queue that building before normal construction, it meant he had to fill up the armies before constructing anything. The prioritized building provided the link in the chain of requirements.

It isn't stated explicitly in the rules that 4.3 also takes precedence over regular construction (although perhaps the rules are intended to be read that way).

I actually mentioned in an IM discussion over the last time this came up that it made the prioritized building ability much more useful than I had thought.

[AussieGiant]

Guy's,

I brought this up IC and OOC previously. It's been confirmed that all recruiting for Royal and Private armies must occur before any building is queued up, whether prioritised or not.

The only section that gets the Megas out of this bind is "unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise.".

Now I'm pretty sure those who are not happy with what is occurring have not contacted the Megas and said "Sure, build the church before replenishing my forces!"

[AussieGiant]

Just a quick note to say I'll be off-line while I move house over the next few days.

I'll be watching from work but it will take a little while to get back online from home.

[TinCow]

spending priorities are such:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

It would be better to look at it like this:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > everything else

The first three are MANDATORY. If any money at all is spent that turn, the first three things (RAs, PAs, PBs) must be taken care of first and in the order indicated. Once all of those have been dealt with properly, then whatever money is left over can be spent on everything else (buildings, misc recruitment, forts, mercs, agents, bribes, etc.). If there are still required RA, PA, or PB expenditures to be made, the only option the Megas has is whether to fund them or whether to save all his money and not spend any of it.

That said, I see how Igno is interpreting this, and his take has some validity. The wording of 4.3 does specifically refer to other recruitment, not all other monetary expenditures. The above paragraph is my recollection of how it was intended, but I think an error may have been made in the language drafting. It might be a good idea to fix this via CA at the next session.

[Ramses II CP]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With all due respect, I don't think that's very complimentary.

Here are the powers regarding the Megas:

Megas Logothetes:
Requirements: Must have been elected Megas Logothetes
Influence: During Emergency Sessions called during his term, 2 + up to 5 Stat Influence, or the Senator's normal Influence, whichever is higher. For every term of 6 turns or more that a Senator serves as Megas Logothetes, he will receive a permanent +1 bonus to his Influence and a permanent increase of +1 to the maximum Stat Influence of his feudal rank. This bonus is cumulative for Senators who serve multiple terms as Megas Logothetes. The in-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus. The post-term bonus does not apply to the Basileus or to any Senator who ceased to be Megas Logothetes because he was impeached.
Powers:
(1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Megas Logothetes are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Senator’s other feudal ranks.
(2) Unless otherwise restricted by the rules, the Megas Logothetes can do anything he wants inside the game except use console cheats, which may be used only as specifically allowed by the Rules. Edicts are only binding on the Megas Logothetes to the extent that the Senate chooses to enforce them.
Limitations on Powers:
(1) The Megas Logothetes must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. With the exception of Prioritized Buildings, the Megas Logothetes is not required to build anything. However, if anything is built in a settlement, it must be the first item on the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Megas Logothetes can build whatever he likes. The Megas Logothetes may upgrade a province’s walls at any time unless such an upgrade is forbidden in advance by the Senator who owns the settlement.
(2) No money can be spent on any construction until all Prioritized Buildings have been funded, unless the Senators who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Buildings, and not enough funding for all of them, the Megas Logothetes may choose which to construct first. Rule 4.3 takes precedence over all prioritized buildings.
(3) The Megas Logothetes must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
(4) (4) The Megas Logothetes cannot disband a unit in a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet if the owner of the a Private Army, Royal Army, city garrison, fort, or controlled fleet gives orders which prevent such a disbanding. This Limitation does not apply to merging depleted units, which the Megas Logothetes may do freely.
(5) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.

Nowhere does it say that Armies take precedence over construction. Nowhere.

I am not trying to skew the rules for my benefit. In fact, the building of the church in Yerevan was not trying to manipulate the rules. It's jolly hard to remember every clause of the rules, especially where they don't exist.

My problem is that this exact question was asked and answered during the test game, it was asked and answered the last time you went off on a wild hare, and, frankly, it's an obvious underlying assumption of the rule base. The rules don't have to say 'Strator ek Lesvou cannot destroy all buildings in Constantinople and disband the Emperor's entire army...' in literal, useless detail, instead they lay out the powers available as a general base. We had a whole test game just to sort out these kinds of absurd little abuses of the system.

And, as far as I can tell, you weren't paying attention or just don't care.

Furthermore the real point here, and the real problem with handling this 'IC' the first time, is that these aren't meant to be laws that the Caesar can manipulate to his advantage, they're OOC rules that all of the players mutually respect and follow in order to help each other have fun. You were unpunished the first time you did this, and, exactly as predicted, you have almost immediately done so again. You won't be the last, you can rest assured that even now someone is poring over the rules looking for any slight technicality to harm their supposedly IC opponent.

There's an essential difference, IMHO, between a character abusing his power and a player abusing the rules. I know very well that not everyone sees the game the same way I do but I'm quite hopeful we'll get a better idea of where this group of players stands on the matter this time.

[TinCow]

I've read this in some more depth now and the rules are definitely not as clear on this as they should be. This is what I intended it to be (I think, it's been a while):

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > everything else

But in practice it really does read like what PK is saying:

royal armies > private armies > prioritized buildings > buildings

Under PK's interpretation (which I think is accurate), the 'everything else' is actually not covered at all. Under the current rules as written, forts, towers, agents, etc. (everything that isn't a military unit or a building) can be built regardless of any RAs, PAs, or PBs. That isn't working as it was intended to. All that stuff should be dumped at the bottom along with the buildings. I will try and come up with some langauge to fix this that can be voted on at the next Senate.

That said, the rules are pretty clear that at least when it comes to hiring military units and funding construction, the following priority of investment must be used:

Royal Army > Private Army > Prioritized Building > Building.

The RA and PA part comes directly from 4.3 and is obvious. The PA over PB and PB over Building part comes from Megas' limitation #2.

[edit] I will try and write up a plain English 'Guide' on how to be the Megas so that the job is easier for other people in the future.

[TinCow]

Eek....

It says that Rule 4.3 takes priority over prioritized buildings, not ordinary buildings. As I have no more prioritized buildings for my term, I can build normal buildings over army replenishment.

If Igno has indeed completed all prioritized buildings, he is technically correct. Unfortunately, the wording of 4.3 skews from what was intended, as far as I can remember it. 4.3 specifically states that RAs and PAs take priority over "military recruitment." This definitely doesn't cover buildings. Megas' Limitation #2 also only specifically states that 4.3 takes priority over "prioritized buildings," not all construction in general. Thus, completing all prioritized buildings makes this bit inoperative.

Technically, as the rules are currently written, I think Igno is correct (assuming he has finished all prioritized buildings). This is, however, a loophole in the rules and not how it was intended to operate. I will propose a CA to fix this problem at the next Senate session (not too far off). For now, Igno has not technically violated a rule as far as I can tell. I would greatly appreciate it the spirit of the law, rather than the letter, would be obeyed until this can be rectified.

Sorry for the multiple posts, they come at various levels of caffeination.

[Privateerkev]

I would love to see this fixed. As written, it is technically legal for a Megas to just gift the treasury every turn to another faction. Or spam agents and avoid recruitment. Or build a massive navy. Or build in every province and neglect recruitment.

All of these take away the power of an independent army. Private armies are very much the building block of power in this game. Or at least one of them. If the Megas can use loopholes to deny or delay it's formation/rebuilding, then it really kills the power of some of the avatars.

I'd also like to address building private armies on the opposite side of the Empire or stranding them on islands. Both are "technically" legal but again they chip away at this crucial building block of power.

I wouldn't mind making the private/royal armies smaller if we could guarantee that the owner would get them in a turn no matter the circumstances.

[Zim]

Hello all.

In the battle I played Kosmas was said to be "captured" (despite no ransom offered. ). I was thinking of doing a story or two about it, but I probably won't be able to now.

So I'm withdrawing my request to delay responses to Kosmas' death.

Battle report should be up pretty soon. Only really notable events from it are that midway thrgouh the battle it looked as if the enemy army might all route. Sadly, that turned out not to be the case (at least, those that routed regrouped quickly).

[Ramses II CP]

My sympathies on your loss Z (), I hope you didn't attack just because I said I thought you could win.

I'm rather curious, what actually killed your avatar? Did you try running through those middle tier arab spearmen, or did your morale break down?

You better be lining up another character as we speak. Wouldn't be LotR without you.

[Zim]

Well, I suppose our conversation gave me the idea I might be able to win.

Of more effect was actually winning siege assaults with those kinds of odds.

It was the middle tier spearmen that did Kosmas in, when he had to shore up my crappy militia spearmen unit (although the militia did better than the "elite" Varangians). His morale broke at the very last second, when only he and one other bodyguard member was left.

I would like Kosmas' final epitaph to be "Varangians suck".

I'm not quite sure when I'm getting back into the game. Some time in the next couple of terms, I think.

My sympathies on your loss Z (), I hope you didn't attack just because I said I thought you could win.

I'm rather curious, what actually killed your avatar? Did you try running through those middle tier arab spearmen, or did your morale break down?

You better be lining up another character as we speak. Wouldn't be LotR without you.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sorry for your loss, Zim. That really sucks.

Two questions though:

1) What were your chances of winning?
2) Do you still have plans on doing a battle report?

[Zim]

1. Rather pathetically, the computer put my odds at 1:1.

2. I'll still do a battle report.