Some great things China has done to Tibet

[KarlXII]

http://www.tibet.net/en/diir/pubs/wp...ng%20Truth.pdf

PDF above.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=18451&article=Dalai+Lama+accuses+China+of+'demographic+aggression'&t=1&c=1

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/china-9...t-test0613.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/as...0092002en.html

http://www.tibet.com/humanrights/hratglance.html

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Asi...ific/EM177.cfm

According to the Heritage Foundation:

If the matter of Tibet's sovereignty is murky, the question about the PRC's treatment of Tibetans is all too clear. After invading Tibet in 1950, the Chinese communists killed over one million Tibetans, destroyed over 6,000 monasteries, and turned Tibet's northeastern province, Amdo, into a gulag housing, by one estimate, up to ten million people. A quarter of a million Chinese troops remain stationed in Tibet. In addition, some 7.5 million Chinese have responded to Beijing's incentives to relocate to Tibet; they now outnumber the 6 million Tibetans. Through what has been termed Chinese apartheid, ethnic Tibetans now have a lower life expectancy, literacy rate, and per capita income than Chinese inhabitants of Tibet

Though I'm glad good China has brung civilization to the backwards, war mongering monks of Tibet

[DemonArchangel]

Whoa, hold on there. Think about what you're trying to say. Amdo, one of the most desolate, harsh and painfully bleak places on earth, cannot *possibly* hold 10 million people in Gulags, especially since there's simply not enough water to keep those people alive, and all food would have to be trucked in (due to a lack of rail lines). The Chinese government probably keeps no one in Amdo.

Xinjiang and Manchuria are far better locations.

As for the rest of those articles. I don't dispute their contents. Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

[PanzerJaeger]

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

[DemonArchangel]

That's right. Communism is a plague, which is why China is no longer communist. Fascism is a plague wherever it manifests as well, but it doesn't seem to deter you, does it?

[LittleGrizzly]

Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

From the sounds of it, it is the native chinese who mostly benefit from these facilities, im sure they would trade some luxurys for thier freedom.

This doesn't quite seem in the spirit of what Banquo said when he closed the other topic...

[KarlXII]

Communism is a plague wherever it manifests. I'm proud my grandfather and other family members were involved in trying to destroy it for good. Its only too bad that they failed...

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

Ideologies cannot kill, people who twist them do.

[DemonArchangel]

Although if Tibet really wants its independence, everything China built in the province must be systematically dismantled first. Roads, rails, bridges, electrical infrastructure, water treatment facilities, schools, businesses, everything will have to go. I want to see how the Tibetans will react to that.

From the sounds of it, it is the native chinese who mostly benefit from these facilities, im sure they would trade some luxurys for thier freedom.

This doesn't quite seem in the spirit of what Banquo said when he closed the other topic...

I know, the Chinese do benefit from the facilities, but if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity. If they're so bent on independence, they can develop those things themselves.

[KarlXII]

I know, the Chinese do benefit from the facilities, but if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity. If they're so bent on independence, they can develop those things themselves.

So you're saying China should deindustrialize a region who's native population already has a low life expectancy, GPA, and such?

You think China may want to be, I don't know, humane, and leave something for the Tibetans to work with?

[DemonArchangel]

So you're saying China should deindustrialize a region who's native population already has a low life expectancy, GPA, and such?

You think China may want to be, I don't know, humane, and leave something for the Tibetans to work with?

Nope. If they want independence, then the Chinese take what is theirs, and then go, leaving the Tibetans as free as they wish to be.

[Adrian II]

[..] if the Tibetans want their own nation, their first step will obviously have to be to stop using Chinese things, especially roads, water and electricity.

Maybe the Tibetens could strike a deal with Beijing: every truly 'Chinese' thing would be dismantled, and in exchange Beijing promises to restitute all stolen land, stolen income, stolen profits, destroyed monasteries, unnecessary deaths and of course all lost foreign investment and foregone benefits from tourism. How does that sound?

Can't we have a serious debate about this? In another thread you expressed mild disappointment that Beijing had not killed all Tibetans instead of only a few million. Now you want to break down the entire infrastructure in Tibet as 'punishment'. Punishment for what, I asked myself as I read those lines.

Could it be that you are so vindictive about Tibet because it is the single most unnecessary mistake Beijing made in the last fifty years? Because this mistake is now the worst pr nightmare for the regime, following every Chinese official wherever he goes in the entire world? At least that would make your attitude psychologically understandable to me. Otherwise we would have to explain your spiteful, disdainful attitude to a downtrodden, half-extinct nation from sheer Chinese racism.

Or is there a third explanation?

[KarlXII]

Nope. If they want independence, then the Chinese take what is theirs, and then go, leaving the Tibetans as free as they wish to be.

I seriously wonder.......

[KarlXII]

Let me ask, are the Tibetans guilty of some high crime worthy enough to be invaded? Should they be punished further by having the Chinese take the infastructure, money, etc. and leaving the Tibetans nothing? I honestly wonder how you find some justification in that.

[HoreTore]

Though I'm glad good China has brung civilization to the backwards, war mongering monks of Tibet

Right. Are you honestly so naive that you think Tibet is only full of peace-loving hippies?

Here's a clue; not every Tibetan is a Dalai Lama. And also; religious people are not pacifists. That includes buddhist monks.

[KarlXII]

Right. Are you honestly so naive that you think Tibet is only full of peace-loving hippies?

Here's a clue; not every Tibetan is a Dalai Lama. And also; religious people are not pacifists. That includes buddhist monks.

I forgot the time when Tibet called for war against China.

I forgot how they launched the invasion of China, only for the noble Chinese to occupy the evil Tibetan country.

No, not ever Tibetan is a Dalai Lama, however, does this allow China to invade it and occupy it?

[Kralizec]

No real surprises in this thread. What's mindboggling is that there are so many useful idiots in the west who tacitly support Tibet's ungoing occupation, and think that maybe the Chinese will stop their cultural genocide if pressured asked nicely behind the stage.

[HoreTore]

I forgot the time when Tibet called for war against China.

That has happened numerous times, and a great number of tibetans want a war against china, as they see the actions of the Dalai Lama as weak and ineffective.

I forgot how they launched the invasion of China, only for the noble Chinese to occupy the evil Tibetan country.

No, not ever Tibetan is a Dalai Lama, however, does this allow China to invade it and occupy it?

That is, of course, something else... I was merely frustrated at the rosy look on Tibet, you seemed to imply that they are completely incapable of barbarism.

The Dalai Lama and his kin have a very good chance at creating a free society, like Mandela and Ghandi. The other guys, however, are more likely to create another nazi state in this world.

[DemonArchangel]

Maybe the Tibetens could strike a deal with Beijing: every truly 'Chinese' thing would be dismantled, and in exchange Beijing promises to restitute all stolen land, stolen income, stolen profits, destroyed monasteries, unnecessary deaths and of course all lost foreign investment and foregone benefits from tourism. How does that sound?

Can't we have a serious debate about this? In another thread you expressed mild disappointment that Beijing had not killed all Tibetans instead of only a few million. Now you want to break down the entire infrastructure in Tibet as 'punishment'. Punishment for what, I asked myself as I read those lines.

Could it be that you are so vindictive about Tibet because it is the single most unnecessary mistake Beijing made in the last fifty years? Because this mistake is now the worst pr nightmare for the regime, following every Chinese official wherever he goes in the entire world? At least that would make your attitude psychologically understandable to me. Otherwise we would have to explain your spiteful, disdainful attitude to a downtrodden, half-extinct nation from sheer Chinese racism.

Or is there a third explanation?

Your first proposition sounds entirely acceptable.

However, you're jumping to conclusions about the whole punishment part. If Tibet wants to be free, it can be free without any of China's assistance. China has poured a lot of money into a rather unproductive section of the world, with full knowledge that it won't get any return on its investment, so if the Tibetans don't want anything to do with China, then China shouldn't have anything to do with Tibet.

And yes you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Tibet has been...to put it politely, a of unimaginable proportions. However, these days, keeping Tibet is pretty much a matter of Chinese national pride, as pigheaded as it is, and especially with all the money that's gone into it and will never come back out. And I unfortunately, am in a position where I am the only voice representing the other side on this forum. It's painful and detestable, but I must argue for the Chinese regime, if only because there is no one else here to do so.

[Adrian II]

Your first proposition sounds entirely acceptable.

However, you're jumping to conclusions about the whole punishment part. If Tibet wants to be free, it can be free without any of China's assistance. China has poured a lot of money into a rather unproductive section of the world, with full knowledge that it won't get any return on its investment, so if the Tibetans don't want anything to do with China, then China shouldn't have anything to do with Tibet.

And yes you pretty much hit the nail on the head. Tibet has been...to put it politely, a of unimaginable proportions. However, these days, keeping Tibet is pretty much a matter of Chinese national pride, as pigheaded as it is, and especially with all the money that's gone into it and will never come back out. And I unfortunately, am in a position where I am the only voice representing the other side on this forum. It's painful and detestable, but I must argue for the Chinese regime, if only because there is no one else here to do so.

Okay, I appreciate your frankness. Though the final point eludes me. No one ever defends the Dutch government in this forum when it fouls up, yet I feel no need to do so whatsoever.

Maybe you feel that way with regard to China because the Tibet issue seems to overshadow everything thatg is good about the country, its history and culture, its huge achievements in this century in the face of extremely adverse conditions. I could understand that, too. I wouldn't agree, but I can understand. And I made it clear in the other thread that my views about the regime in no way reflect my attitude about Chinese culture. Personally I have nothing but pleasant memories from Shanghai, Hong Kong, various Chinatowns across the world. And in my view the greatest victim of the present regime is the Chinese people themselves, not the Tibetans.

[JR-]

Your first proposition sounds entirely acceptable.

However, you're jumping to conclusions about the whole punishment part. If Tibet wants to be free, it can be free without any of China's assistance. China has poured a lot of money into a rather unproductive section of the world, with full knowledge that it won't get any return on its investment, so if the Tibetans don't want anything to do with China, then China shouldn't have anything to do with Tibet.

i think i must have missed the press-release where beijing said they would pack their bags and decamp if tibet said they weren't welcome anymore...................

[LittleGrizzly]

DA was responding to one of adrians points rather than announcing a goverment position on tibet...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

[LittleGrizzly]

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow.

Yes, a small chance perhaps that those in power after the revolution got greedy and rather than being communists they were greedy/power hungy ?

I really don't think the cold war helped either, look what happened to various developing capitalist countries that got interfered with at the time, chile and pinochet being a prime example...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes, a small chance perhaps that those in power after the revolution got greedy and rather than being communists they were greedy/power hungy ?

Which happens to be one of the key flaws of communism. Anyways, Marxism-Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism are, as I've said before, all forms of communism.

[DemonArchangel]

Okay, I appreciate your frankness. Though the final point eludes me. No one ever defends the Dutch government in this forum when it fouls up, yet I feel no need to do so whatsoever.

Maybe you feel that way with regard to China because the Tibet issue seems to overshadow everything thatg is good about the country, its history and culture, its huge achievements in this century in the face of extremely adverse conditions. I could understand that, too. I wouldn't agree, but I can understand. And I made it clear in the other thread that my views about the regime in no way reflect my attitude about Chinese culture. Personally I have nothing but pleasant memories from Shanghai, Hong Kong, various Chinatowns across the world. And in my view the greatest victim of the present regime is the Chinese people themselves, not the Tibetans.

I guess the Dutch are rather apathetic about their government. Then again, nobody goes to great lengths to attack the Dutch government and Dutch people. And the Chinese are usually far harsher on themselves than on minority peoples. It's probably a personality quirk taken too far.

[HoreTore]

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

Show me a country that isn't guilty of mass murder/imprisonment.

[PanzerJaeger]

Please, Communism has been horribly twisted by the dictators and mass murderers we associate the Ideology with. I'm glad my grandfather fought the Soviets, however, they were Communist in name only, really.

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

[LittleGrizzly]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

take the n't out of this sentence, add and annoying to the end as well...

Which happens to be one of the key flaws of communism.

Which happens to be the flaw of any system not use democratic checks and balances, and well i would say democracys have that problem as well


That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

Those countries were all going to end up badly off anyway, for most of them just look at nearby nieghbours that choose different systems and still managed to end up badly off, you could sit here all day listing monarchies and capitalist countrys that failed or were vicious in various ways but i doubt that would convince you of the uselessness of monarchies or capitalism..

[rvg]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

Indeed. Any ideology or religion is only as good as its followers.

[Devastatin Dave]

Some great things China has done to Tibet? Hmmmm, oh they have brought them population control!!!

[HoreTore]

The whole "The Soviets weren't real communists!" meme is exhausting in its repitition and complete in its falsehood.

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.