Some great things China has done to Tibet

[rvg]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

Communism has failed in its every incarnation. At least so far. Not having high hopes for Nepal's future either, if maoists are indeed allowed to fully implement their plans.

[Adrian II]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

Don't confuse socialism with communism, come on. Communism is the 'dictatorship of the proletariat' carried out by a one-party state. This has nothing to do with the advocacy of social justice through democratic means.

[PanzerJaeger]

They were one form of socialism. That one failed does not mean that others(like social democracy) is a failure. Look at europe for proof of that.

I don't disagree. Even the most extreme forms of European socialism cannot be confused with what was attempted in Russia, though.

Most people do not know much about the internal workings of the USSR. People sympathetic to the left seem to have convinced themselves and much of the general population that Russia was simply a dictatorship operating under the guise of communism, thus washing their hands of the undesirable outcome. "If only they were real communists, things would have been so much better." However, the USSR made vast efforts to conform to Marxist theory in all levels of society, eventually leading to its downfall. Stalin, apart from being a cold hearted bastard with a penchant for genocide, was also a devoted communist - and so were those that followed him. I could go on about collectivization, class destruction, elimination of private holdings, state owned industry, etc... but all of that can be condensed into a simple examination of the vast amount of time and energy spent on trying to ensure every house in the Soviet Union was exactly the same size. (Party members excluded of course.. )

A simple comparison of gross domestic product clearly demonstrates that the USSR was very much a communist nation… to a fault. After WW2, Russia and America had roughly the same population, vast resources, and huge industrial bases. Granted, Russia had some serious rebuilding to do after the war, so they started off at a disadvantage. However, even into the 60s, 70s, and 80s, the Russian GDP was not even 10% of that of America… or even Germany, and began to fall long before the state did. This can be directly attributed to staunch communist ideology and principles applied to the economy.

As can be seen in China, when a communist nation begins to abandon communist ideology – prosperity ensues.

Year US *******Russia
1969 3795.076 216.3361
1970 3803.296 223.0269
1971 3912.682 229.9247
1972 4129.993 237.0358
1973 4373.621 244.3668
1974 4349.16 251.9245
1975 4334.417 259.716
1976 4578.701 267.7484
1977 4793.936 276.0293
1978 5061.152 284.5663
1979 5223.534 293.3673
1980 5210.976 302.4405
1981 5338.742 311.7944
1982 5228.449 321.4375
1983 5455.041 331.3789
1984 5852.097 341.6277
1985 6075.413 352.1935
1986 6280.384 363.0861
1987 6491.47 374.3155
1988 6761.525 385.8923
1989 6998.383 397.8271
1990 7120.47 385.8923
1991 7085.089 366.4166


http://www.swivel.com/data_columns/show/2085375

[seireikhaan]

Hmm. Last I checked, the Dalai Lama wasn't demanding complete independence from China. Only for the Tibetans to be allowed basic freedoms of speech, religion, and culture. They don't mind paying taxes and such, they just want their basic human rights.

[Sarmatian]

Socialism is in a way an effect communism had on capitalism. That's one of the few good things about communism, the effect in had on European workers to organize themselves better. The difference between capitalism in western Europe and in the US is the proof of that.

On the other hand there are examples of communism improving standard of living. In Yugoslavia for example. Country turned from agrarian to industrialized, roads, railroads and airports built, GDP growth was around 10% (until the oil crisis), medical care was free, education was free, literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality rate brought on par with western Europe, civil rights increased, women were encouraged to take important positions, tourism revenues were booming...

True, Yugoslavia probably had the most liberal version of communism there was, but it still was communism.

[KarlXII]

That's because communism in theory, when put in practice, inevitably screws up somehow. Every single communist country in the world, and here's a list of current or former ones:

Cuba
Soviet Russia (+ Eastern Bloc)
Cambodia
Vietnam
China
Ethiopia
Laos

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

All forms of government have killed. What's your point?

[rvg]

All forms of government have killed. What's your point?

The point is that Communism in addition to killing millions of people has a strong propensity towards killing the economy of the affected state, which in turn leads to the demise of the communist system in the affected state. It's is similar in many ways to an infectious disease.

[KarlXII]

The point is that Communism in addition to killing millions of people has a strong propensity towards killing the economy of the affected state, which in turn leads to the demise of the communist system in the affected state. It's is similar in many ways to an infectious disease.

True, however, I don't see why Communism is the only political ideology that continually is critisized for the murders it's practicers commit. As stated before, an ideology is only as good as it's followers.

[rvg]

True, however, I don't see why Communism is the only political ideology that continually is critisized for the murders it's practicers commit. As stated before, an ideology is only as good as it's followers.

Exactly... and judging by the followers of communism and its achievements, it is a very crummy ideology. There are a few silver linings in that cloud, but overall it is still overwhelmingly a cloud.

[seireikhaan]

EMFM, how could you forget good ol' Robby Mugabe.

[CountArach]

On the other hand there are examples of communism improving standard of living. In Yugoslavia for example. Country turned from agrarian to industrialized, roads, railroads and airports built, GDP growth was around 10% (until the oil crisis), medical care was free, education was free, literacy, life expectancy, infant mortality rate brought on par with western Europe, civil rights increased, women were encouraged to take important positions, tourism revenues were booming...

True, Yugoslavia probably had the most liberal version of communism there was, but it still was communism.

Amen

[TevashSzat]

And I unfortunately, am in a position where I am the only voice representing the other side on this forum. It's painful and detestable, but I must argue for the Chinese regime, if only because there is no one else here to do so.

Well, you're not the only one here. I am a native Chinese here and was born in Beijing. I'm a permanent resident in the US atm. Didn't really want to get into the discussion before since frankly, I don't want to spend all that time writing posts as long as this one

Anyways, I'll try to give some thoughts, some anecdotes, and basically give you a Chinese viewpoint

Okay first of all, Communism, imo, works on paper but will never even come close to success in real life which is why the only reason the Chinese government hasn't fallen yet is that right now, it's not really even attempting to keep the Communism ideal; its is just communist in name.

As for why we adopted it, keep this in mind. China has a 5000 year history. We, as a civilization, have been one of the most dominant nations in the world until the modern times. We rivaled the Romans, the Greeks, any ancient civilization you can name and ancient China was probably comparable if not better. In China right now, basically these last 100-150 years were called something like the century of downfall when we went from the best in the world to one of the most underdeveloped ones. Now, the nationalists whose government were democratic, really messed up horribly before and in WWII. Given China's state at that point, I doubt any government could have done too much better, but they were the government at that time and their failure created the impetus for the rise of the Communist Party.

Now, has the Communist government in the past half a century or so done some terrible things? Yes, without a doubt and the people do know that. However, China is one of the great powers of the world now and is only growing in power, which I don't think anyone can deny. Progress has been made and the average person is living MUCH better than half a century ago. As much as the critics blame the Chinese government for human rights issues, there is no doubt that the country has improved tremendously.

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Now, the cultural revolution equaled the educational opportunities between rural and urban areas. My father studied hard and managed to get into one of the best medical schools in the country. He graduated and became a cardiologist. Now, with a more capitalistic kinda society setting in, there is absolutely 100% no chance of that happening. NO CHANCE. I don't care if the child is as smart as Albert Einstein, but the simply fact is that if your family background is that poor, the disparity between rural and urban areas is too large for anyone to cross

As for the Tibet issue, this is what the people feel: Before China went in, Tibet was terribly backwards, even by Chinese standards at that time, which is saying alot. Now, Tibet has improved tremendously, even for the natives there. For gods sake, I've seen monks using cell phones in Tibet. Now, lots of people have been killed in Tibet, but so have millions in rest of China so most people feel that there is nothing special or overly harsh that Tibet has suffered through.

Essentially, most people see Tibet trying to get independence right after it has gained a tremendous amount of benefit from China and tons of investment. Its akin to something like Hawaii wanting independence right now from the US (well, thats not the best comparison there, but still). Hawaii, btw, only joined the United States because the wealthy sugar plantation owners and what not started a Coup to overthrow Hawaii's rightful government.

I can say that for the near future, barring some major change in world politics, Tibet will never be free. If it declares independence, China will surely invade and crush the opposition easily. Now, don't say that the US will help or anything because it won't. Just look at Georgia and Russia right now. Georgia is actually a sovereign nation and all the US is doing is sending in humanitarian supplies....

China and US have too much of a symbiotic relationship for either country to break off relations. US needs China for borrowing money for government debts and for cheap Chinese goods. Without Chinese goods, the US economy will downspiral and crash and there will be another great depression. China needs US consumers to buy Chinese goods and if US stops buying them, the Chinese boom will collapse and there will be a great depression too.

So.... this 862 word reply is finally finished.....and yeah. Kinda a semi rant, but I'm hopefully coherent enough there. Please don't end up making me write another one because this really takes up alot of time....

Edit: Some grammar and spelling corretions here

[DemonArchangel]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply good sir.

[Somebody Else]

I kind of like the idea of a free Tibet. I mean, everyone loves a theocracy.

I did hear that some of the more worldly Tibetans (ie. those that have left the country to do something other than protest about their poor benighted monks &c.) saying that being part of the rather Secular Chinese hegemony is vastly superior to the rather more radical Muslim regimes that do their damndest to spread in that part of the world.

Oh, by the way... I've lived here in China for most of my life. I can't remember seeing anyone in a Mao suit, waving a little red book, being oppressed (except by the sodding heat). The government may be 'communist' but the Chinese are about as socialist as my left foot. In fact, I don't know a race more naturally capitalistic than the Chinese - I think it's somewhere in the genetic code.

As for the whole human rights thing. I agree with DA - so the various people have lost some of their culture (mostly the bit involving living in mud huts to the grand old age of 35). I travelled around Xinjiang a couple of years ago; sure, conditions out there aren't as good as they are in the more developed regions in the East, near the coast. But on the other hand, every dinky little homestead in the Taklamakan desert, no matter how far from the nearest town, has a government issued solar panel, and thus electricity. There are parts of UK Plc. that don't have that.

One of those things really, westerners who haven't spent any time in China get very indignant about 'those awful commies in Red China'. Those of us that have been here think that the Chinese are actually doing things very well. (If, occasionally, in a pretty peculiar way)

Maybe I've been watching too much CCTV.

SE

*edit*

I forgot to mention, the Han are the Borg. Everyone will be assimilated, one way or another.

[Sarmatian]

Very good post by TevashSzat. A giant that is China can not be reformed in a blink of an eye. It's not Switzerland, Belgium or Ireland. It takes time. And if someone doesn't see the improvement in China in every aspect, from standard of living to human rights in the last several decades, than he is blind.

[Adrian II]

So far I have seen only ridicule for Tibet and Tibetans from those who purport to represent Chinese views. More genrally, they merely confirm my impression that offical and (to a large extent) popular attitudes in China are highly vindictive, virtually seething with jealousy at other great powers and more affluent parts of the world, as if the self-inflicted wounds, poverty and structurally induced stupidity of their political system was somehow to blame on the rest of the world. Such little zest or capacity for self-criticism bodes ill for China's role on the world stage, even for its capacity to take care of its own problems.

[rvg]

So far I have seen only ridicule for Tibet and Tibetans from those who purport to represent Chinese views. More genrally, they merely confirm my impression that offical and (to a large extent) popular attitudes in China are highly vindictive, virtually seething with jealousy at other great powers and more affluent parts of the world, as if the self-inflicted wounds, poverty and structurally induced stupidity of their political system was somehow to blame on the rest of the world. Such little zest or capacity for self-criticism bodes ill for China's role on the world stage, even for its capacity to take care of its own problems.

I always look at Taiwan when I want to imagine what the real China should be like.

[KarlXII]

I always look at Taiwan when I want to imagine what the real China should be like.

Little off topic, but do you think Taiwan is still the legit government of China?

[rvg]

Little off topic, but do you think Taiwan is still the legit government of China?

Tough question. Koumintang didn't perform as well as the Commies did during WW2, and then Commies beat them fair and square in a civil war. Too bad they lost, but they did lose. So imho, the legit government is whichever one is power. However, legitimate, doesn't necessarily mean optimal.

[Adrian II]

I always look at Taiwan when I want to imagine what the real China should be like.

Taiwan has been the true representative of mainland China in a symbolic sense, if not politically and militarily. They have been the model for mainland China for many years and nowadays are, ironically, a main foreign investor in mainland China. Taiwan GDP per capita is $29500. The Republic of China's is only $2,034 (ranked 107th in the world).

[ICantSpellDawg]

Too bad they lost, but they did lose. So imho, the legit government is whichever one is power. However, legitimate, doesn't necessarily mean optimal.

I agree that the PRC is the legitimate government of China.
However, I don't see the PRC as the legitimate government of Taiwan. They obviously didn't fight hard enough to take Taiwan away. If you believe that China should eventually step into Taiwan and take over shop - then I immediately demand that the United Kingdom cede it's territory to the U.S. since we won our revolution, too.

[Caius]

I know I'm missing a few, but think about this - is there any one of those communist countries that was never guilty of mass murder and/or imprisonment? Stalinism, Maoism, Marxism-Leninism...these are all forms of communism, all of which have led to the deaths of millions.

And their enemies also.

[rvg]

I agree that the PRC is the legitimate government of China.
However, I don't see the PRC as the legitimate government of Taiwan. They obviously didn't fight hard enough to take Taiwan away. If you believe that China should eventually step into Taiwan and take over shop - then I immediately demand that the United Kingdom cede it's territory to the U.S. since we won our revolution, too.

Of course not. They couldn't get Taiwan in time, now it's not theirs to rule over. At least not until they introduce a true multi-party democracy on the mainland. That's the price of getting Taiwan back. ,mmm

[PanzerJaeger]

Now, many have said that China only improved once the Communist restrictions were lifted, but that is not the full picture. The Cultural Revolution, as horrible as it was, did have a few benefits: it gave a chance to millions of poor farmers and created a generation determined to succeed. My father was born is a very very poor village in one of the poorest provinces in China. He literally lived in a mud hut, his father was a blacksmith, and they sold crops for a living and this was in the 60s/70s. In any nation, he would basically grow up like his father and would never improve in socioeconomic status.

Yea, the Holocaust was pretty nasty as well, but you know without all those Jews, there were lots of nice jobs and houses to be had!

So your dad benefited from the persecution and deaths of the educated? Victory for the idiots!

What a joke....

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

True, however, I don't see why Communism is the only political ideology that continually is critisized for the murders it's practicers commit.

I'd go so far as to say that communist governments have caused more deaths in the 20th century than any other type of government due to mass murder and disregard for human life - despite the fact that the large majority of nations were never communist. Communism, in practice, has proven to be a deadly ideology, and, as has been said, it destroys the economy (and human rights).

As stated before, an ideology is only as good as it's followers.

Very true, I don't at all disagree.

[DemonArchangel]

Yea, the Holocaust was pretty nasty as well, but you know without all those Jews, there were lots of nice jobs and houses to be had!

So your dad benefited from the persecution and deaths of the educated? Victory for the idiots!

What a joke....

I actually *AGREE* with you on that one (dear god what have I become?). The Cultural Revolution was pretty much some sick joke. My mother was a Red Guard during that time period. Don't ask what happened. Just don't. I'm not a very big fan of Mao. He did some good things (like massive vaccination programs), but did many, many, many terrible things (like kill a bunch of people).

Adrian: What is so great about Tibet, that you feel the need to stick up for them? Why don't you argue for the rights of other oppressed people? Or is China just your favorite target? Tibetans are certainly not a peaceful, innocuous people. Look how they screwed over Mongolia. What have they done to earn the respect of the Chinese?

Nothing. That's what.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

To be honest - as well as completely blunt - I don't give a damn about Tibet. Not in the slightest. Just like I don't give a damn about Quebecois, the Basques, the Catalonians, the Alban...I mean, Kosovars, or the Scots. The only reason I do give a damn about South Ossetia is because I don't give a damn about Georgia, and the only reason I'm not getting started on Bavarian seperatists is because my grandmother was Bavarian.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's very early and I've been watching rather too much Yes, Minister recently. Please excuse the outburst. I can bleep everything out nicely if required.

[KarlXII]

To be honest - as well as completely blunt - I don't give a damn about Tibet. Not in the slightest. Just like I don't give a damn about Quebecois, the Basques, the Catalonians, the Alban...I mean, Kosovars, or the Scots. The only reason I do give a damn about South Ossetia is because I don't give a damn about Georgia, and the only reason I'm not getting started on Bavarian seperatists is because my grandmother was Bavarian.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's very early and I've been watching rather too much Yes, Minister recently. Please excuse the outburst. I can bleep everything out nicely if required.

So you don't give a damn about a sovereign nation but you give a damn about a rebellious area? You give a damn about South Ossetia, but not Quebec?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So you don't give a damn about a sovereign nation but you give a damn about a rebellious area? You give a damn about South Ossetia, but not Quebec?

I said why in that post.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you want a real reason, it's because in reality I couldn't care less on whether South Ossetia had independance or not, because it doesn't really change anything. I do care about Quebec because Quebec is both important to Canada and has no good reason to split from Canada - in addition to every Quebec seperatist I know of being an arrogant prick, and half of the Quebec federalists as well (I'm looking at you Mr. Trudeau).

[TevashSzat]

Yea, the Holocaust was pretty nasty as well, but you know without all those Jews, there were lots of nice jobs and houses to be had!

So your dad benefited from the persecution and deaths of the educated? Victory for the idiots!

What a joke....

Again, I don't defend what Mao did to the educated, but I want people to understand some of its more positive effects. Just talking about the quite awful ones is like beating a dead horse, imo.

Well, what I don't think people in the west understand is that during the Cultural Revolution, hundreds of millions living in rural areas actually had a chance of doing something worthwhile in their lives. Now, all of them have no chance at all at moving up the social ladder. This disparity and lack of upward movement from the lower and middle classes is an incredible concern in China right now