OOC Thread and Chatroom 2

[OverKnight]

While this is all fascinating, would you mind blowing up the Empire after Aleksios is dead? I'm trying to mantain the illusion he actually accomplished something.

[Privateerkev]

Why this is all fascinating, would you mind blowing up the Empire after Aleksios is dead? I'm trying to mantain the illusion he actually accomplished something.

He did accomplish something. He set this all up. We would have nothing to tear down if it wasn't for what Aleksios built up.

[Ignoramus]

And there would be nothing for Ioannis to defend if Aleksios hadn't reigned.

[Privateerkev]

And there would be nothing for Ioannis to defend if Aleksios hadn't reigned.

And there would be no reason to tear it down if it wasn't for Ioannis... oh wait, we're supposed to be talking about Aleksios...

[Ignoramus]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

[ULC]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

"Traitors" usually need a rallying point, and a reason for betrayal, such as, say, the Caesar?

[Privateerkev]

If there is a civil war(which would be the fault of traitors), then the empire will come out of it stronger and better.

I totally agree. People definitely see the Caesar IC as being a traitor...

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Count yourself lucky. Solomon has scurvy and Makedonios has had Pneumonia for 40+ years. Not to mention what's going to happen to Laskaris...

Umm..now what will happen to him then??

[Kagemusha]

Or maybe the order will be crushed as mere traitors. Only time will tell what will happen.

[OverKnight]

Speaking of inter-house relations, are we seeing a merge in two houses, or is Savvas jumping over to the Asteri?

[Ferret]

I was wondering the same thing, maybe rossah left the Asteri for the Tagamata? Too bad the people who can answer are in aussie time...

[OverKnight]

Well, any influence changes wouldn't take effect until the new term.

Still I am curious. I was wondering when the "Big Three" would start gobbling up the two smaller houses or if there would be fragmentation instead.

I should be paying more attention, I'll have to be dealing with House politics more directly soon enough.

[Rowan]

Since Savvas accepted Zigavinos' oath without breaking his own, house Asteri is at the moment just Kalameteros while Tagamata gained 3 more members. Things are getting... interesting.

[Andres]

Well, any influence changes wouldn't take effect until the new term.

Still I am curious. I was wondering when the "Big Three" would start gobbling up the two smaller houses or if there would be fragmentation instead.

I should be paying more attention, I'll have to be dealing with House politics more directly soon enough.

Technically, the senate is no longer in session. It's "open for debate", but no legislation can be proposed.

Since the senate is no longer in session, oaths can be broken and sworn.

If, at any point, a Senator ceases to meet the requirements of their existing rank, they will be demoted to the highest rank whose requirements they meet

.

I think this means the influence changes have immediate effect.

[Andres]

Since Savvas accepted Zigavinos' oath without breaking his own, house Asteri is at the moment just Kalameteros while Tagamata gained 3 more members. Things are getting... interesting.

Exciting, isn't it?

[rossahh]

Why don't we just wait and see what happens with Ioannis, we don't want him to be lonely for too long, do we?


Aussie time means night time right now (7:55), EF.

[deguerra]

I hope not.

Andres?

[Ignoramus]

The fact is that we don't have enough players to support 5 houses. Without a private army, houses are too weak to be of much importance. The more members you have, the stronger you are.

[deguerra]

Ignoramus brings up a good point of discussion.

Houses were never part of the rule set and their entities are not set in stone. The idea, just pending some OOC approval, is for Tagmata to remain independent as a House, but join our feudal chain.

Nobody ever said that one house = one feudal chain, that is just how things played out at the beginning. given that we have lost a few members, and that a few are taking some time in between characters, I thought it was a good time to challenge that initial set-up a bit. We'll see if it can work...

[Ituralde]

As you say Houses are nothing more or less than what we make of it IC. I think with generation changes this will become more and more obvious and Houses will shift, appear, disappear and even reappear. I think the whole dynamic involving the feudal chains and Houses is one of the more interesting things in this game.

[AussieGiant]

Whatever we do, lets not make any more rules about it.

[Andres]

Whatever we do, lets not make any more rules about it.

I like it as it is. The more freedom, the better. It allows for arrangements, agreements, treaties, conventions between Houses and Senators, spiced up with the occasional backstabbing, word breaking, lying, and disputes about interpretation of what has been agreed

[deguerra]

With that I can agree

edit: also can somebody please tell me how to do tables for one's signature. I am very confused.

[AussieGiant]

I like it as it is. The more freedom, the better. It allows for arrangements, agreements, treaties, conventions between Houses and Senators, spiced up with the occasional backstabbing, word breaking, lying, and disputes about interpretation of what has been agreed

Exactly.

Consult our resident lawyer for any advise if there are concerns.

[Privateerkev]

I see a re-vote as an exstension of a normal senate session. Therefore, I think it would be really unfair to let influence change place between a voting session and a re-voting session. I stayed quiet when we let Motep join after the session started. But if we let influence change between a vote and a re-vote, I will call "shenanigans."

As for "Houses" those are just made up entities and they can be what ever we want. The rules are based on "Feudal Chains", not Houses. A Chain can be called anything. You can call your chain a house, knightly order, politburo, ect... Therefore, a "house" is a made up construct and can be anything at all. It could be seperate chains, one member from each chain, the whole empire, anything.

*edit*

I realized the first part could sound harsh so I add this smiley for your viewing pleasure.

[AussieGiant]

There should be no change in influence for the second vote in my view.

[AussieGiant]

God I would just love to be able to say something in the Magnaura right now!!!

[Privateerkev]

I remember OK saying something similar when Matt was stuck in a Greek prison.

You could just use a proxy to do your talking for you. They seem to be all the rage...

[Andres]

I see a re-vote as an exstension of a normal senate session. Therefore, I think it would be really unfair to let influence change place between a voting session and a re-voting session. I stayed quiet when we let Motep join after the session started. But if we let influence change between a vote and a re-vote, I will call "shenanigans."

I disagree.

The Senate session was closed. The current "session" is just a re-opening of the Senate for debate, not an "extension" of the previous session.

a) the previous session was closed, you cannot extend what has been closed;
b) the current debates are not a senate session, since we are now no longer discussing/proposing legislation, nor is there a possibility for each senator to propose himself as candidate for Megas. These debates focus solely on the two current candidates and as such, the debates do not qualify as senate sessions.

Of course, if TinCow has a different viewpoint, I will accept that.

EDIT : additonal arguments:

3.1 –Sessions: The Senate will meet in a Normal Session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each Normal and Emergency Session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting. econ21 or TinCow can change the length of individual sessions at will.

3.2 – Proposing Legislation: During each session, Senators may propose Edicts and Amendments, up to the limit allowed by their rank. Edicts and Amendments must be seconded by two other Senators before they can be put to the vote.

3.1 says that there can be debates out of session. The Protoasecretes announced that the Senate will be open for debate. I think this has to be interpreted as just that: debate.

To back up this argumentation, I invoke rule 3.2. which clearly states that "during each session, Senators may propose Edicts and Amendments". Now, the Protoasecretes clearly stated that we cannot propose Edicts/Amendments (I believe he used the word "legislation, which is the same) during these debates. Now, rule 3.1 clearly says that we are allowed to propose legislation during a Senate Session. Since we cannot propose legislation now, the current debate does not qualifiy as a Senate Session.

Since we are now not having a senate session, the new oaths and the influence changes that come with it, come into effect and will have to be considered when counting the votes in the current re-vote.

[Privateerkev]

We'll see what TC says. But if he rules that the influence can change, to say that I would be "unhappy" would be a gigantic understatement...

I see the Senate Session as still ongoing. Therefore, any influence that changes hands has to wait for the session to end. Plus, to reinforce my point, the new save has not been released. So, we're not even in the next term.

The candidates can lobby people to switch their votes. And even to get people to promise to "jump ship" after the session is over. But no influence can change hands between votes.

The way I see it, influence is "frozen" until the new save game is released. Plus, we wouldn't even have been in this position if it wasn't for Motep. I was never keen on letting a new player vote when he hadn't even sat through a whole Senate Session. But I kept quiet. But if we let influence change around, that will be too much IMHO.