Carthaginians speaks Hebrew?

[Arcani_Bar_Kochba]

@Shigawire

"Ok, so I'm "ashamed" I've only asked the opinions of 3 experts on Phoenician-Punic."

Being that Punic died as a language before Hebrew did maybe you are asking the wrong people. Start speaking to people who are experts on hebrew before you make a judgement as to where Hebrew came from. If i want to know about Punic i'll speak to someone about it, im talking about Hebrew here wasnt that apparent?

"In each case it's very difficult for us to take into account ALL the possible controversies between scholarly consensus and the respective culture's self-image."

In this case you havent followed any scholarly consensus at all. Like i said before, unless the working assumption was that Ancient (Biblical) Hebrew was itself a dialect of phoenician or vice versa, then i fail to see anyone claiming that the Israelis somehow used a long dead, and extremely obscure language as a blueprint for Modern Hebrew in lieu of hebrew itself which has an unparalleled literary tradition to draw from. This is almost comical.

As for the idea tha rabbinic or Mishnaic Hebrew stems from Phoenician... based on? You responded with rhetoric in place of concrete assertions of fact and or logical operations based on a premise. Dont play around with me. If you have something to defend yourself here then do so, if not just leave it be and let that professor guy have a dialog with me.

Lots of people here were throwing this idea around as if this was common knowledge or a given. It is not, this is a pretty radical theory (unless of course the assumption is that Hebrew was a dialect of phoenician in the first place), and should be scrutinized rigorously before it's lapped up by all the pseudo-intellectuals here.

"In every single instance of implementing a culture's history and language into EB, we see some or other national grievance or controversy (contrived or not)."

Wait... Being that the Jews arent implemented here what the hell are you even talking about? Im referring to a bunch of comments made by a bunch of yahoos claiming that Mishnaic Hebrew came from Phoenician... Now go back and read that again... now one more time. Got it? Now that we are back on the same page i'd like to know how you or anyone else can go about proving that. It was said repeatedly with great confidence by alot of people here, so let's hear it... Again unless the premise is that Hebrew and Phoenician were virtually identical in the first place, and that Mishnaic Hebrew seemed to drop certain elements from Ancient Hebrew, which then made it more similar (relatively) to Phoenician (go back and read that again Shigawire i know im losing you here) then i think any such assertion is impossible to prove and probably rests on flimsy premises and wishful thinking.

"...taught in an institutionalized Israeli educational system (I take it that you're from there)."
EPIC FAIL

"taking that" i.e. another unwarranted assumption, makes you two things:

1 Wrong again!
2 Kinda sad for trying to discredit my viewpoint as a product of institutional bias as opposed to being a very serious question that you should be taking seriously... shame shame

Im american born and raised, im a law student, and i dont like BS. We could be discussing latin or how to make doughnuts for all i care, what matters here is that i happen to know a decent amount about Hebrew itself along with the history of that region and this whole thing sounds ridiculous to me... Unles of course the assumption is that Hebrew itself was a dialect of Phoenician or that trhey were sister languages or whatever. if thats the assumption then ill disagree and walk away from this discussion because at least that would be logically consistent, and im not gong to try to prove or disprove a premise based so far back into antiquity. Let Archaeologists quibble about that.

"the personalization of the grievance you exhibit, by claiming "shame" unto us"

didnt mean to get personal, just a figure of speech. Mainly letting you ll know that I think EB is great and respect what's been done here so far, but was pretty disappointed to see this kind of nonsense being accepted without a fight, and then seeing guys backing down at someone's word, not actually going deeper to question the authority cited.

so im sorry if you thought i was getting personal. Not my intention at all, but i was a little surprised to see a revolutionary idea like this being accepted so readily.

"As you're reading this, you're probably sizzling inside"

Not really... if you actually had anything intelligent to throw at me i might be because i enjoy a challenge. This is kinda grade-school if you ask me. You havent addressed a single point of my argument, all you have done is addressed me individually and that's pretty disappointing. So shame on you for that too :p.

"your prostration of our "shame" indicative of your motivations, but it is also employed in your manner as a fruitless and demagogic trick"

blah blah blah more empty rhetoric. Whatever, i dont care just deal wit my argument from now on please. Dont waste both of our time.

"you have to also be at least prepared for the eventuality that you could be proven wrong."

retard... how the hell am i going to proven wrong when the answers to this whole thing might lie in splitting hairs about linguistics going back 4000 years or more... no one is gonna "prove" anything ether way short of unearthing some massive phoenician library or something (and even that would just be a starting point) or at least clarifying what the underlying premises are behind this whole position.

Im not open minded at all, im judgemental, but im fair as hell. I doubt the ability to be "proven wrong" through this medium as it would require alot of discussion presented in an orderly way with consistent logic applied from premise to conclusion, and that doesnt really happen on an online forum. Its usually a bunch of flaming rhetoric... case in point your last post. But being a fair man i'll always admit when a conclusion is logical or not. i may still disagree with a premise but proving that premise could require endless debate which is not only tedious and frustrating but well beyond the scope of this forum.

In closing stop wasting my time because you like to hear yourself type. Dont flame me, deal with what i've raised. You didnt do that though, you talked a bunch of trash, tried to discredit me, and even tried to assassinate my character... dude that's low.

Epic Fail.

@Foot

Sorry, i didnt mean to jump on you and i apologize if the "tone" of that last message was out of line. Like i said you always have solid input and i've always respected what you've brought to the table in other posts. Please accept my apology.

@The EB team

Thanks for all the effort you've made in making this fantastic mod.

P.S. Shgawire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrkg...eature=related

[a completely inoffensive name]

@Shigawire

"...taught in an institutionalized Israeli educational system (I take it that you're from there)."
EPIC FAIL

[...]

"your prostration of our "shame" indicative of your motivations, but it is also employed in your manner as a fruitless and demagogic trick"

blah blah blah more empty rhetoric. Whatever, i dont care just deal wit my argument from now on please. Dont waste both of our time.

[...]

In closing stop wasting my time because you like to hear yourself type. Dont flame me, deal with what i've raised. You didnt do that though, you talked a bunch of trash, tried to discredit me, and even tried to assassinate my character... dude that's low.

Epic Fail.

P.S. Shgawire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrkg...eature=related

I don't know know if I should praise you, befriend you or just put your post in my sig so it can be remembered forever.

[satalexton]

lol? I'm just lost of words. just lol.

[bovi]

If i want to know about Punic i'll speak to someone about it, im talking about Hebrew here wasnt that apparent?

Of course not. The thread is about the language that the Carthaginians speak in EB. We are talking about the Punic voicemod, and you dismiss authorities on Punic out of hand. Why would we be discussing Hebrew in the EB forum? Hebrew is not part of the mod, Punic is. Get on topic. And seeing as you think Punic experts are disqualified about Hebrew, I'm sure you would consider consulting Hebrew experts about Punic a waste of time.

You may want to read this post. Carefully. Possibly it would preclude usage of "retard", "yahoos" etc. There is no reason to apologize for insults when you use the rest of the post to spout fresh insults.

Now, before you start flaming me, I am not an authority on anything historical, but rather the civil tone of this forum, which you sir are not adhering to.

[Arcani_Bar_Kochba]

Of course not. The thread is about the language that the Carthaginians speak in EB. We are talking about the Punic voicemod.

well i think you're wrong chief. Topic thread is "carthaginians speak Hebrew?" about one third to one half of the 56 (now 57) posts here are a discussion of either the origin of hebrew or general languages that Jews speak (about 5 posts talking about yiddish alone).

So, sorry charlie, it should have been very apparent that i've been talking about hebrew for anyone who has been following this discussion.

[Hax]

Bar_Kochba, what exactly is your point here?

[Cimon]

well i think you're wrong chief. Topic thread is "carthaginians speak Hebrew?" about one third to one half of the 56 (now 57) posts here are a discussion of either the origin of hebrew or general languages that Jews speak (about 5 posts talking about yiddish alone).

So, sorry charlie, it should have been very apparent that i've been talking about hebrew for anyone who has been following this discussion.

The reason the thread is "Carthaginians speak[s] Hebrew?" is because the OP was interested to find out if that is true. That's inherent in the question mark at the end. Further, if you read the end of the first post, it is apparent that he is asking about a Punic voicemod.

The reason that so many points are on the Hebrew and Yiddish languages are that they are tangential to the original purpose of the thread. I know this because I wrote several of them, and even at the time I was thinking, "Hmm, this is tangential, but it's interesting, so I'll post it."

I'm not an expert on ancient Punic or ancient/modern Hebrew, so I have no idea what the relationship was/is. I do know that it's unlikely to ever know for sure, and that to act like the answer is a foregone conclusion is not only against the spirit of academia and EB, but also as unfounded as to suggest that the otherside's conclusion is similarly foregone.

I also know that, right or wrong, you will get a lot farther if you spot using epithets like "chief" and "charlie." Just some food for thought, slugger.

[Arcani_Bar_Kochba]

thanks for the advice Cimon, duly noted. It seems to me that there has been so much tangential content added here that this thread has been effectively hijacked but whatever, thats not important.

In any event the only thing i'm concerned about is the discussion about the origin of Hebrew that started taking place here. Some guys were confidently throwing around the idea that Hebrew came from Punic, and I popped in to challenge that or to at least get a clarification as to what the underlying premises are behind that assertion. Im still waiting on that to decide whether or not it would be an impossible point to argue. I mean im not gonna try to influence people to my side, im either gonna prove it outright or let it lie, and i think that's reflected in my utter disregard for any diplomacy thus far.

I think it's great hearing the Carth's speaking in sorta Hebrew. Hebrew probably makes a great temporary solution for providing a distinct voice mod untill a more thorough Punic one can be created. So im not taking issue with what EB has done so far, Im taking issue with some tangential crap thats been thrown around in this thread about Hebrew.