Surprisingly bad units

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Not even is this a contradiction in terms, but it's simply untrue. Heavier armour is why they're both slower, and have less stamina. And by the way, we've been talking about the Thrakian Prodromoi throughout, not the regular Hellenistic ones (which aren't as good).

Yes, Thraikioi Prodromoi. I just told that story of a battle where my Thraikioi got obliterated by regular Prodromoi, but revenged by worn-out Thessalikoi then, but it seems that things as these only happen to me here.

Nope, Thessalians are not as swift and agile as Prodromoi because the latter have improved stamina as well as the same charge. This makes them better at executing repeated shock-charges. Thessalians are superior in close-combat fighting, but they don't exactly excel at it and always seem to take somewhat high casualties in my hands. Prodromoi do even worse, but you don't expect them to do well and they are easy and cheap to replace. Neither of them is suited for close-combat anyway: leave that to the infantry or the likes of Hetairoi.

OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances. Oh and Thraikioi Prodromoi of whom Quintus was speaking are not exactly much better to replace then Thessalians, you basically have to own the same portion of the map / hire scarce mercenaries. Easy to replace are regular Prodromoi and Lonchophoroi Hippeis, as a combination of similar quality, but both are an important tad worse in battle than the aforementioned two.


OK our mutual opinions won't change. But once look at it from the historical perspective please:

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
• Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
• So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.

So repeated charging has its place in EB tactics, but in reality it is not an option. It is actually an exploit. Use Thessalians for charging at pinned worn-out infantry. Use Hetairoi for charging at pinned worn-out elite infantry or cavalry. Use your Prodromoi and Thraikioi Prodromoi for charging at pinned worn-out unarmoured levies. And better, let your heavy infantry do the blood work.

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

[Lysimachos]

Hell I put 2 eastern slingres over these guys and eve n the jewish spearmen (forgot name) do better

The Iudaioi Taxeis are actually very useful, a candidate for surprisingly good units.

It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again.

There is one way: the enemy has a shieldwall that you can't breach and the enemies don't get "mixed" (the battle that spontaneously came to my mind is out of the timeframe, though: Hastings).

But this reminds me of M2TW. For Kingdoms they made some changes (forgot what, played it on another computer some time ago) that made mounted units worthless for frontal charges. In medieval times a head-on charge was a standard tactic but the game negates it

[Woreczko]

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.
• Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.
• So basically, order your charge command with thought and pray, as it is the way it would have worked. EB units do not instantly rout normally, so cavalry will most likely need their close combat ability.

Repeated cavalry charges actually were a standart late medieval and modern tactics in Europe. A cavalry unit would charge infantry and get through or fall back to make place for another line to make their charge. Single soldier (particularly if he was wealthy) could participate in several charges as long as fresh horses (and lances) were available upon his return to the "main line". Of course in ancient times it may have worked different, that I do not know.

[QuintusSertorius]

PS: Has nothing to do with cavalry, but with exploit tactics. Do not move your psiloi around the flanks of your battle line and let them shoot at the enemy's back. This is an exploit as well. Historical psiloi would stand where they were commanded to stand and unleash their volleys, at best. Any confrontation with enemy soldiers would rout them instantaneously.

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.

Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.

[Celtic_Punk]

Yes, I don't understand what kind of point you are trying to make Centurio Nixalsverdrus. Infact repeated cavalry charges were a standard tactic, and unlike you said:

Once the cavalry is unleashed, there is normally no way to even order the unit to attack another unit. The unit would chase the routed foe to the end. Only real elite cavalry, such as Hannibal's Iberians at Cannae, would be able to perform so disciplined.

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.

please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

this is untrue, In armies they had a bugler or whatever horn instrument they had at the time who would play a specific tune, note, or series of notes that would signal a withdrawal. of course if your bugler falls then you're buggered but it is likely the general's cavalry wing would not be the first wing to engage unless absolutely necessary.
Well, such battles do make a decent noise, and it's impossible to reach your cavalry in a mile's or more distance with the sound of a trumpet or whatever instrument.

Also, i doubt (unless the cavalry was in a bloodlust state of mind) they would chase routers till they were all dead allowing the enemy the ability to make a critical flanking manoeuvre. There are accounts of the tide of battle being completely turned because of a brutal error such as that, However this didn't happen alot. and I'm sure a half decent general would have told his cavalry not to make such a mistake.

Such as Pompey at Pharsalos, Alexander at Issos and Gaugamela? Hannibal did indeed, and it was extraordinary, not the rule, and doubtless impossible with a worse cavarly force than his Iberians (which are underrepresented in EB).

please keep on topic, and try not to talk out of your ass. this isn't Ace Ventura.

Yes, please keep on topic...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well by the line you're taking here, anything that isn't playing on the general cam, with all units under AI control is an "exploit". We can't help how unrealistic the RTW engine is.

Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.

Psiloi like peltastai weren't just skirmishers. Often they were lightened hoplites, so using them for aggressive flanking isn't misplaced at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

[Fondor_Yards]

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.

[Sdragon]

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

[Lysimachos]

Jewish Spearmen: Do the same job as Hellenic Spearmen, they do it worse, they cost more and the Greeks can be trained either in the same places as the Jews or the town next to them. Not a bad unit per say, but something better is available and more wide spread for less gold.

You mean the Thureophoroi? The Iudaioi cost slightly more because they are 25 % more men in a unit, also have better morale than the Thureophoroi. These have better armor, a bit more javelin damage, though less range.
I woudn't underestimate the numbers. I use both, but when i'm able to, i take Thorakitai instead of Thureophoroi while i retain the Iudaioi.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I think you don't understand what an exploit is. Yes battles aren't 100% accurate, and most likely never will be Just because you can actually tell your units what to do across the map isn't an exploit. Deploying/fighting at the red lines is an exploit.

Also, you don't need to double post every time. There's an edit button.

I said "strictly speaking". I too don't use General's cam, just because I'm too afraid of using my precious troops to non-thinking computer-officers. Sometimes I even make repeated charges! And sorry that I double-posted twice.

So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.

Autocalc is even more retarded. In autocalc, the computer calculates the battles the same way he fights the real battles: cavalry headlong into the sarissas. You can see that at the ridiculous casualty rates for cavalry units. And I think Thraikioi Prodromoi are fantastic cavalry force btw.

I think I'm with Centurio in this one...

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order

¡Finalmente! I began to feel really lonely....

[QuintusSertorius]

Strictly speaking yes, anything else than General's cam is an exploit. The only thing which in RL was better than in the game is that the units would be commanded by human beings which do not need constant babysitting if properly briefed before battle.

So why not autocalc all battles then? Seems better than being stuck at ground level not being able to see very much, hoping the retarded AI does what it's supposed to.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peltastai aren't Psiloi, but lightened Hoplites indeed. Psiloi are really poor people from the slums etc.. Akontistai, Sphendonetai and Toxotai.

In any case, I don't use my psiloi in combat. They stand in front of the line, firing until they're out. Then they hide behind the line waiting for a rout. Watch any of my battle reports and you can see how they're used. That's also why they take so few casualties.

[||Lz3||]

I think I'm with Centurio in this one...

I also think that once the cav has been sent... it's over , unless you're using really trained guys... but for example... I doubt leuce eppos (sp?) have that order

[Ludens]

OK, perhaps the Thessalians are a bit slower. I didn't exactly measure it. However, I care more about the actual battle performances.

I am not sure whether there is a difference in speed between Thessalians and Prodromoi (standard and Thracian). I was talking about their stamina. Thessalians get worn out after a couple of charges. Prodromoi have the hardy-stat, so they lose their battle-effectiveness less quickly.

[Sarcasm]

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.

• It's not a tactic to "rinse and repeat" charging at the enemy. That is an EB tactic. There is absolutely no way that a cavalry unit would pull out after a completed charge, ride back and charge again. Charge is charge, and either it works, which means victory over the attacked unit with near to no casualties, or it fails, which means fight to death or rout. A retreat after a charge is rout.

But dude, wtf? You need to read more.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I agree with you that Thessalians aren't a bad unit, at all. They have their place in the battle line as do the Prodromoi who are more of an outer wing cavalry, instead of a close flank guard.

Exactly.

But dude, wtf? You need to read more.

I can't imagine that for the Antique time period. When you get somehow deflected, perhaps, but if once in the middle of the fray in melee? I can't imagine how collecting the combatants and retreat for a new attack would have worked. If you have proof for it, well... it's not that I'm unable to change my mind.

[Aper]

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

About cavalry :
Guys, I think you are simply speaking of different tactics, in RL soldiers are quite more versatile than in RTW...
When cavalry was forced to face (frontally I mean) infantry, with no chance to outflank, what did they do? Like the Berber cavalry at Poitiers or the Norman cavalry at Hastings they fake charge, slow down when near to the enemy foot soldiers, attack them from safe distance with missiles or long spears, then retreat to not be caught in melee. When cavalrymen see their foes disorganized or frightened, they made a full charge and rout them. Simple. You're both right and however there's no need to be disrespectful to each other...

So, a bit like Hippakontistai type cavalry, or Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

Anyways I thought about the rinse and repeat issue and have come to the so far conclusion that very elite forces would be certainly able to do so. Like Hetairoi, people with much to lose, a reputation, wealth, social standing. People with very strong ties to the ruling house and a strong warrior codex. But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

[penguinking]

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

[MerlinusCDXX]

Romani early bodyguard cavalry are horrible.

At least in contrast to the bodyguards of my Pahlava/Pontos campaigns, anyway.

lol... a bit of an unfair comparison, considering that Eastern Heavy cavalry and Steppe Kataphract archers are friggin' monsters on the field.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

But I don't think this would be the case for lower or middle class cavalry. I don't think Prodromoi could perform such a maneuver. In the middle of melee, each fighting for his live, then to listen to an order of some sort, which essentially means retreat in the first place, but then not to fully retreat, but instead line up again. This is difficult and would require a very large degree of discipline and morale.

Given the cost of maintaining horses it's unlikely that many cavalrymen would be towards the bottom of the income scale. And discipline is hardly an exclusive preserve of the noble class either. It could even be argued that the quest for glory amongst the Hellenistic or Hellenised nobility militated against discipline as they might be more keen to charge, and not want to be seen to retreat. Training, drill and discipline would be as much a result of culture as income.

In any case, I always imagined that the majority of successor troops (barring levies and "tribal" units) are more likely to be professionals or mercenaries than semi-drilled citizens, given the fact that some part of the region or other was at war more or less continuously through the period.

[gamegeek2]

Triarii I think are ridiculous. I'm facing seas of them in my Epeiros campaign (VH/M) and they never seem to run out. They're something like 15 atk/27 def with ~1600 cost. It's insane.

However, I kill every Roman bodyguard I face. They suck, at least compared to other bodyguards.