Why Turtle

**Askthepizzaguy** · 09-05-2008, 01:20

I challenge you to a DUEL TO THE DEATH, Lancome.

We shall see whose strategem is better.

**ArtistofWarfare** · 09-05-2008, 01:47

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I challenge you to a DUEL TO THE DEATH, Lancome.

We shall see whose strategem is better.

This is why we need a legitimate TW MP campaign at some point...

The thing is ATPG - While you're building florins/experienced troops/provinces early against the AI factions, the turtler is going to be teching up, increasing troop numbers and troop producing capabilities (while you're fighting wars) as well as setting the stage for the coming war in which they'll be defending initially.

I would think that in Total War, a turtler would be a more formidable enemy than in any MP strategy game before. Once you take the total RTS out of the equation and throw in the turn based hybrid that is TW, things are different.

Again though - it's 2 play styles and we're both just theorizing. I repeat: This is why we need a TW MP campaign at some point. We already have an active enough community just on the .org alone that we could have large numbers of player factions in campaigns if they were available tomorrow.

Not hot seat. A real campaign.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 09-05-2008, 02:00

If we're talking about M2TW, I believe the duel to the death thread has conclusively proven, turtling gets destroyed by blitzing.

The power graphs alone are daunting. When one side is ten times the other side in terms of total strength, and the blitzer is capturing entire empires filled with turtle-y goodness (fortresses, large cities, etc), you have one turtle empire versus 5 turtle empires all under the direct control of one blitzer empire. Turtles just cannot do what blitzers can, given equal starting strength, or even a handicap against them. Starting as Oman versus Jerusalem, or Sindh versus the Ayyubids... unless you blitz as well you cannot keep up.

The only way it doesnt work is if the turtle is on the border of the blitzer's empire. And in such a case, it wouldn't be a blitzer versus turtle game, it would be a cage match. And there is a different strategy for a cage match. I am still open to the idea of being proven wrong about blitzers triumphing over turtles 100 percent of the time, but I am still looking for a seriously strong turtle who doesn't fear getting his head smashed in.

Takers?

**Lancome** · 09-05-2008, 02:09

But I dont think The Blitz dude would ever get to touch the Turtler early in the Game if their Factions are far away. One such example Britain(Blitz) vs. Egypt (turtle)... Perhaps by early mid game... but by then The turtler should have units able to easily hack

away on the spearmen and Peasants.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 09-05-2008, 02:11

Care to test your hypothesis in my mad scientist's lab of death incarnate?

**Lancome** · 09-05-2008, 02:15

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Care to test your hypothesis in my mad scientist's lab of death incarnate?

Ok what if there is a random button and you end up being england and I Egypt... would you be able to Blitz me if you didnt know which specific faction I were to be.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 09-05-2008, 02:43

Originally Posted by Lancome

Ok what if there is a random button and you end up being england and I Egypt... would you be able to Blitz me if you didnt know which specific faction I were to be.

As long as we were not neighboring factions, and you did not use a blitz strategy, I feel confident that you will join the ranks of those I have vanquished.

**ArtistofWarfare** · 09-05-2008, 02:16

Originally Posted by Lancome

But I dont think The Blitz dude would ever get to touch the Turtler early in the Game if their Factions are far away. One such example Britain(Blitz) vs. Egypt (turtle)... Perhaps by early mid game... but by then The turtler should have units able to easily hack

away on the spearmen and Peasants.

That's the thing: Either the turtler starts out bordering or semi enveloped in the blitzer's kingdom or they are located far away and there won't be any early clash between the two factions any way. Hence, by the time the faction's did clash - the turtler isn't some early period 6 province faction.

If it's dozens upon dozens of turns into the game and the turtler has 12-20 provinces...regardless of how big the blitzer is there's absolutely no guarantee on that war. Clearly, the turtler will be fielding better quality troops and obviously wouldn't be short on numbers.

**Lancome** · 09-05-2008, 02:27

Thank you ArtistofWarfare... as for you Askthepizzaguy (aka Rummel) Blitz has its limits when Great distance is involved.

**ArtistofWarfare** · 09-05-2008, 02:11

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

If we're talking about M2TW, I believe the duel to the death thread has conclusively proven, turtling gets destroyed by blitzing.

The power graphs alone are daunting. When one side is ten times the other side in terms of total strength, and the blitzer is capturing entire empires filled with turtle-y goodness (fortresses, large cities, etc), you have one turtle empire versus 5 turtle empires all under the direct control of one blitzer empire. Turtles just cannot do what blitzers can, given equal starting strength, or even a handicap against them. Starting as Oman versus Jerusalem, or Sindh versus the Ayyubids... unless you blitz as well you cannot keep up.

The only way it doesnt work is if the turtle is on the border of the blitzer's empire. And in such a case, it wouldn't be a blitzer versus turtle game, it would be a cage match. And there is a different strategy for a cage match. I am still open to the idea of being proven wrong about blitzers triumphing over turtles 100 percent of the time, but I am still looking for a seriously strong turtle who doesn't fear getting his head smashed in.

Takers?

So hypothetically - in a real campaign and we're both Catholic: You just get excomm'd within the first 10 turns?

I mean if that's the case, any difficulty at all in one of your wars and immediately the turtler could invade you and turn the tables fast. Right, especially if they're a border faction. Now you're screwed.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 09-05-2008, 02:12

Originally Posted by ArtistofWarfare

So hypothetically - in a real campaign and we're both Catholic: You just get excomm'd within the first 10 turns?

I mean if that's the case, any difficulty at all in one of your wars and immediately the turtler could invade you and turn the tables fast. Right, especially if they're a border faction. Now you're screwed.

Care to test your hypothesis in my mad scientist's lab of death incarnate?