The greatest human tragedy of all time

[CountArach]

The Nation-State. Without a doubt.

[Fragony]

The scramble for Africa, disgusting.

[Mouzafphaerre]

The Nation-State. Without a doubt.

.
Add me to this one too. Even better/worse: Nation!
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[Sarmatian]

The Nation-State. Without a doubt.

Yes, it was much better when we were killing each other for our respective nobles and/or religion...

[Knight of the Rose]

Well, "greatest" is a difficult term when linked with tragedy. Every day, someone is killed in the traffic bringing the greatest tragedy to her nearest family. Their loss is just as "great" as any other loss.

Then, if you are positivistical in nature, you could argue, that the loss of two is greater than the loss of one. Then you will be looking for sums, perhaps even trying to put it into perspective as KrooK did in his post. When did there die a lot of people? If you are more philosophically inclined, then you would argue for things that changed the way humans treated eachother. When did we lose the most respect for our fellow human beings in one instant? And if you are ecologically aware, you would try to pin out the greatest loss to nature - when were the most species brought to extinction?

Different questions lead to different answers.

My answer? The concept of race.

/KotR

[CountArach]

Yes, it was much better when we were killing each other for our respective nobles and/or religion...

When we were under a nobility we were still in a nation-state, though in a different form to what we consider it today. As for religion - it is because of nation-states that it has achieved enough power to cause people to die for it.

[Subedei]

Yeah, people working only 8h per day instead of from dawn to dusk, having good medical care, education, enough money to fulfill their needs not just to sustain themselves is a real bummer.

I guess everything has two sides.

Assuming you are living in a first world country I would state YOU have access to the medical care, job/money etc..
Well, think about the 70-90% of world population who don´t have the fortune you/ i have? Is it b/c they are all lazy? I don't think so.

Industrialization in it's current state has negative effects like robbery of commodities from 3rd world countries, unequal distribution of wealth, negative effects of the climate change esp. in 3rd world countires (lack of water, destruction of crops....) etc.

It has a lot of good sides, esp. for someone like me living in the EU. Go ask sombody in the Congo....

The positive effects faciliated by mankinds progress sure do affect a lot of people...but the lot of people become more and more and more....We have to think about a way to deal with this without further destruction of our own planet. This is one of our biggest challenges atm.

"preaching mode off"

[Conqueror]

The Manhattan Project.

[Sarmatian]

I guess everything has two sides.

Assuming you are living in a first world country I would state YOU have access to the medical care, job/money etc..
Well, think about the 70-90% of world population who don´t have the fortune you/ i have? Is it b/c they are all lazy? I don't think so.

Industrialization in it's current state has negative effects like robbery of commodities from 3rd world countries, unequal distribution of wealth, negative effects of the climate change esp. in 3rd world countires (lack of water, destruction of crops....) etc.

It has a lot of good sides, esp. for someone like me living in the EU. Go ask sombody in the Congo....

The positive effects faciliated by mankinds progress sure do affect a lot of people...but the lot of people become more and more and more....We have to think about a way to deal with this without further destruction of our own planet. This is one of our biggest challenges atm.

"preaching mode off"

One of the reasons, actually prime reason, why 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries is because they aren't industrialized countries, but pretty much agrarian...

The reasons why aren't they industrialized is another issue, complex and deserving of a thread of its own...

When we were under a nobility we were still in a nation-state, though in a different form to what we consider it today. As for religion - it is because of nation-states that it has achieved enough power to cause people to die for it.

That's debatable, but okay, let's say that it is so. Let me rephrase - It was so much better when we were killing each other for our respective tribes and chiefs?

[CountArach]

That's debatable, but okay, let's say that it is so. Let me rephrase - It was so much better when we were killing each other for our respective tribes and chiefs?

No it wasn't, but Nation States have allowed for the industrialisation of killing.

[Fragony]

No it wasn't, but Nation States have allowed for the industrialisation of killing.

Dear god CountArach do they teach you anything but marxism at your university?

[Big_John]

letting women speak out of turn.


edit:

[Meneldil]

When we were under a nobility we were still in a nation-state, though in a different form to what we consider it today. As for religion - it is because of nation-states that it has achieved enough power to cause people to die for it.

Not true, and not true.

Nation-state is widely considered as a creation of the modern era, and as such, do not include feudal state, tribal groups and so on.

And we all know that people have been willing to kill themselves over a religious issue way before the modern era.

I think you're confusing state and nation here. Both are two really different notions.

No it wasn't, but Nation States have allowed for the industrialisation of killing.

I disagree aswell.

The Ottoman Empire was in 1917 all but a nation-state (Empire being almost the antithesis of nation-state), yet it's responsible for the first large-scall genocide of the 20th century.
Furthermore, the world has known large-scale genocide in the past aswell. The fact that Mongols or Conquistadores didn't have death camps doesn't make their slaughter less hideous.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The greatest human tragedy of all time is the deliberate, intentional, planned, institutionalized spreading of ignorance through the use of propaganda, lies, irrational arguments, misleading data, false assumptions, and superstitious belief.

What begins at childhood, people are indoctrinated to believe falsehoods or unproven opinions as fact. Examples of which include religious-based intolerance, racism, or faith-based mythology. A moral code is instructed to them which does not include humility, compassion, self-doubt, and non-aggression. Children are taught, in most societies (including mine in the United States) to fear, suspect, doubt, and hate others for their differing appearances, cultures, and philosophies.

Fear and suspicion of Muslims, of Communism, of Atheism, of Mormonism; in some societies, the fear and hatred of Jews, of Serbians, of Croatians, of Catholics, Protestants, and even Pagans. The hatred between Hindus and Muslims, Buddhists and Muslims, Christians and other faiths, begins at childhood. This is evident because if a person who was taught nothing of religion encounters a person of faith, they may be confused as to why that person believes in such ostensibly ridiculous things, but at the same time does not fear or hate them.

Fear and hate are taught, en masse, by religious extremists. This is not limited to those who believe, but also to some extent by those who do not believe. Militant atheism causes hatred of those with faith.

However, it is not merely ignorance and fear and hate which is taught about religion, but about race. Which is an absurdly stupid concept. At least with religion there may be an argument for it's abolishment, for some faiths teach rituals which are harmful to the human body, and teach abuse towards women and child abuse. However, a person's "race" never hurt anyone.

Much like fearing someone for having green eyes, racism is an irrational, ignorant fear of someone for their genetic diversity from one's self. At the same time, we do not fear dogs or cats, and they have a MUCH wider genetic diversity from ourselves. Yet we fear those with less than 1 tenth of 1 percent genetic deviation. Regardless where you live on earth or what genetic makeup you have, you are more than 99% the same as every other human being who ever lived.

Also consider European racism, for example. While one might fear black people, as an example, for looking different from a European (a silly reason to fear someone), Adolf Hitler looked exactly like an average European man, and he ended up killing far more Europeans than anyone else. Sounds like Europeans should fear themselves, if they have anyone to fear. And even so, there is no reason to judge someone for their genetics. If Adolf Hitler had a son or a grandson, can you guarantee that child would be an evil genocidal maniac?

Has anyone here ever been related to a criminal or a murderer? Somewhere down the line, I am afraid we are ALL related to someone who killed. Should we fear one another for the crimes of our ancestors? This is why current race relations between Muslims and Hindus, Whites and Blacks, etc, being as low as they are, are based upon crimes committed in the past, and which causes crimes to be committed in the present, and will inspire crimes to be committed in the future, because people refuse to let things go.

The cycle of revenge traps us in racism, when those old hatreds should have died with the people who caused the crimes, and the people who were victims thereof. But teaching our children ignorance, racism, and hate, allows that same wicked ignorance to proliferate to a new generation.

The indoctrination of children, in general, whether political, racial, religious, or secular, forces an ideology onto an unwilling minor who is not mature enough to make decisions for themselves. They are not at the age of consent.

Teaching political, religious, or any other kind of ideology to a child is a crime, in my view. When a person is old enough to make a rational choice for themselves, then offering to teach them your viewpoint is acceptable. Teaching a child to pray and worship and participate in rituals, teaching them who their "enemies" are, telling them of politics when it is none of their business, forcing your viewpoint, your hatreds, your ignorance, your superstitions, your faith (right or wrong) onto a child removes their ability to say no, removes their ability to make a choice, to choose to become who they are.

Because hatred and ignorance will disappear over time, forgotten by the mind, and killed off by the natural event of death, the only reason it exists today is because there is a concerted, intentional, organized and conscious effort to spread ignorance.

Religious institutions, political propaganda machines, and intolerant parents forcing false, unsubstantiated, and hateful doctrine onto a new generation, this is the machination which drives human ignorance from generation to generation to generation. This allows the religious superstitions to not only survive, but to grow and claim ever more people, convincing them they must give their wealth and their rational thought, their skepticism, their alternative viewpoints, their objections, their reasoning, and surrender them all to a religious institution. Or, it allows racist groups to spread their hatred to innocent children. Or it allows political machines to remain in power decades after they have continued to fail the people who elected them.

It all stems from conscious spreading of ignorance, fear, lies, and hatred.

Militancy, is irrational use of force to spread an irrational ideology. Any ideology which requires being spread by gunpoint is obviously being rejected by the people who wanted not to believe it, but are now forced to. Most major religions were spread by warfare and conquest, forced conversion, inquisition, crusade and jihad, or state-sponsored conversion. Most major prejudices, hatreds, and superstitions were spread by militants, by irresponsible parents threatening their children with punishment if they did not learn their scripture, or repeat their vile hatred of racial minorities.

Militant hatred, forced ignorance... we see how it spreads.

Now look; as the ignorance festers, there is only one outcome. An entire generation of minds poisoned by falsehoods, lies, fears, and superstitions, bending to the will of their controlling overlords, be they religious, political, or economic; Now they listen to their masters who control their ignorant minds, and they blame others for their problems.

They ignorantly blame their lot in life on people they have never met, who have done them no wrong. They become hungry, greedy, and they hate what others have, because they ignore the fact that they are living and breathing without that which others have. They are convinced that the only way that they can live a prosperous life, and provide for their children, is to take up arms and destroy their enemies, and take their lands, their possessions, their women, their natural resources.

And so begins war, where military propaganda machines churn out obedient and loyal followers of The Doctrine, be it political, religious, or racist. These otherwise fine human beings, programmed since birth to believe. To Believe, not to think. To Believe, not to study, to believe, not to rationalize. To believe, not to question. To believe, not to choose.

These obedient, loyal believers... indoctrinated by ignorance, motivated by desire, influenced by peer pressure and repeated lies by their puppet masters, fed the doctrine, and forced to believe it... these loyal obedient slaves of human ignorance are then taught only how to destroy, how to maim, how to kill, how to conquer, how to cause suffering.

Not how to resolve disputes. Not how to disarm without harming. Not how to coexist. Not how to feel compassion.

These slaves of human ignorance, who have been fed everything they need to believe and nothing they need to know, proceed to destroy humanity.

Thus the virus of ignorance has taken control of the human mind, the human body, the human race, and has wrought it's fatal consequences.


Racial wars, religious wars, political wars, territorial wars, resource wars, fear wars. Instead of enlightened cooperation, defense, and resolution of disputes, there is only death. Only killing, murder, and atrocity. And those who command the two sides of this battle all believe the same thing; In order to keep the power they have, they must write the history books, and indoctrinate another generation of innocent people, having annihilated one generation after another.

Now look at the death toll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

World Wars, Chinese "civil" wars, wars of conquest and oppression. The Holocaust, The Great Leap Forward, the conquest of Native Americans, the Atlantic slave trade, the Arab slave trade. The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the spread of Islam and Christianity. The religious wars of China, the suppression of minorities and other faiths, the forced conversion of the Zoroastrians, the European conquests of Africa, possession of India and China...

All based upon the concept of concerted, intentional, indoctrination of human ignorance, lies, fears, and hatreds, forced upon young innocent children. Generation after generation destroyed through racism, through conquest, through slavery, through religious conversion, through holy war.

Conscious ignorance. This is the greatest plague against humanity that has ever been, or ever will be. If it caused death alone, it would be almost gentle and healing, for those who are ignorant or choose to be ignorant would be wiped out. But this plague, this virus of the mind, conscious ignorance, irrational fear, irrational belief, militancy and extremism, this spreads from one innocent mind to another, until the entire human race is destroyed in a final holocaust.

[KarlXII]

Askthepizzaguy:

[Meneldil]

I beg to differ on a few different points :

Firstly, modern racism is IMO not ethnical, but cultural. ie. it's not aimed toward a specific race/skin color, but toward a specific culture.
Does it make it any less stupid ? No, but nonetheless, I don't think racism can be summarized as "I hate these guy 'cause he has green eyes".

Secondly, sure, none should impose its value to a child, at least till he can make a rational choice. Thing is, IMO, 80% of the population is simply not capable to make such a choice (that is, considering that rational choice even exist). That's why propaganda and endoctrinment won't disapear anytime in a near future.
Even if it was possible to educate the population (which would be contrary to the elite's interests), I think most people wouldn't care. Being educated and enlightened requires a lot of work and time, and is in a way, exhausting.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Friendly Rebuttal:

In some cases, you may be right. But the plain fact is, there are racist groups bent on hating black people for being black, not because they dislike gangsta rap or because they have a grudge against Africa for some reason.

I would say it's not always the case, but there is still plenty of RACE-based racism left. I wish I were wrong, but I'm not, unfortunately.

Your second point, to summarize: "ignorance is bliss", right?

I dunno. This world doesn't seem blissful to me. It's not actually blissful, but being ignorant is like being drunk, it incapacitates you and numbs your brain.

[Paradox]

You never cease to amaze me, pizzaguy.

[Xipe Totec]

I think Askthepizzaguy has more or less hit the nail on the head. There has been a constant struggle between ideas and ideologies throughout human history. People have been kept divided to serve the ends of the elite who rule. Their most powerful tool has always been ignorance and falsehood. Their greatest fear is the spread of truth and knowledge.

If enough people know enough about enough the big lies will crumble in the face of the realisation of what is really quite obvious to many of us now. There is no such thing as a race and never was. Learning enough about anthropology and genetics makes that obvious. There is no logical reason to expect an afterlife, but it sure helps the few to cheat the many. Nations are simply arbitrary divisions thrown up by historical accidents, not some expression of a unique biological identity. Competition between economies is not some inevitable Darwinian process, rather it is some twisted game of roulette to amuse the ruling classes and ignores the misery and frustration heaped upon the majority of humanity.

However it is not inevitable that we will remain ignorant forever. They control as much of the media as possible and daily brainwash the masses with advertising and propaganda. That's why most people wish only to believe what they are told, do what they are told, buy what they are told, and reap the rich rewards of over-eating and over-borrowing.

Perhaps the internet will prove to be the greatest tool ever devised for spreading counter arguments which unite people and enrich their lives. People may one day comprehend what marvels they are and how much happier we all could be if we work together for the good of all rather than against one another for the benefit of a few. I'd like to hope that will be the future for humanity, because the alternative is escalating strife over dwindling resources and perhaps a holocaust of a world war we may not survive.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Bravo!

Bravissimo! I wish the internet were the tool of bringing people together, but I see it equally a method of tearing people apart. The information age is at odds with the propaganda age. Separating fiction from truth is the key which will unlock this chaotic knot of lies, and allow people to see things from a very similarly objective viewpoint.

That will unite us... objectivity. Skepticism. Reasonable doubt.

Think like a scientist who is unravelling the mysteries of the universe, and we may yet penetrate the eternal fog.

[Togakure]

I think it is a terrible tragedy that our own antiquated belief systems, and values and behaviors derived from them, inhibit the human race from evolving more rapidly. But it is pointless to rail against what is, really. It's simply the Way of things.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Good post! I disagree about one thing, Masamune:

Although I am a skeptic and a cynic and I also believe that ignorance is in the majority, in a strong fortified position within the upper eschelons of our society as well as dispersed within, I do not believe it is pointless to resist.

Slavery was worth resisting. Imperialism was worth resisting. Nazism was worth resisting. Totalitarianism is worth resisting. Surely ignorance is worth resisting, within ourselves, and through free exchange of ideas, battling of logic against unsupported assumption in others.

Through resistance and vigilance and curiosity and skepticism, we battle the ignorance within ourselves. Through the war of ideas, the wrong ideas will be burned within the fire, and the right ones will prevail. This battles the ignorance in others. What must ensure this victory is an objective mind. One cannot convince a stubborn mind that it is wrong, the stubborn mind must choose to open, and choose to believe that it can be wrong.

When everyone on Earth accepts the possibility of being wrong, peace becomes a real concept, something that can be achieved in time.

[Togakure]

Thank you, Askthepizzaguy. I didn't mean to suggest that it is pointless to resist such things as you describe, but that what is, is, what was, was, and what will be, will be, etc. Humanity will take its course. Choices and consequences will direct that course on micro and macro levels; we are all part of it and all that we think, say, do matters--and doesn't matter.

It's definitely not pointless to resist what we perceive to be counterproductive belief systems, values, behaviors, etc., but I question the effectiveness of railing with and against the masses in the ways we currently do, which leads to so much strife and violence. How we resist is significant. I think a better use of personal energy is to forward the evolution of ourselves as individuals. In doing so, we forward the evolution of our kind indirectly, but do not presume to subject others to our own beliefs and values. To share when others are receptive is good; to push, to force is not.

What is considered productive by some is considered counterproductive by others. Who decides? The majority? In statistics, the majority is average. By evolving ourselves, we address this issue of ignorance. It gets sticky when influence comes into play. There is no easy solution. The one thing we can, to an extent, control is ourselves--what we think, what we say, what we do. It begins and ends with the individual. Societies echo what individuals believe, say, do.

This is a very complicated subject. It's very difficult to explain these thoughts of mine using words. I hope I'm not getting in over my head here. I don't want to argue with anyone.

[CountArach]

Dear god CountArach do they teach you anything but marxism at your university?

Yes... I figured that myself. I do Ancient History - not much Marxism there.

Not true, and not true.

Nation-state is widely considered as a creation of the modern era, and as such, do not include feudal state, tribal groups and so on.

Alright then, how about the State in the sense of a person with authority ruling over others?

And we all know that people have been willing to kill themselves over a religious issue way before the modern era.

I think you're confusing state and nation here. Both are two really different notions.

I apologise. I know the difference, but often I use the term interchangably.

[Strike For The South]

Im changing my vote. Self richeousness

[Xipe Totec]

Good post! I disagree about one thing, Masamune:

Although I am a skeptic and a cynic and I also believe that ignorance is in the majority, in a strong fortified position within the upper eschelons of our society as well as dispersed within, I do not believe it is pointless to resist.

Slavery was worth resisting. Imperialism was worth resisting. Nazism was worth resisting. Totalitarianism is worth resisting. Surely ignorance is worth resisting, within ourselves, and through free exchange of ideas, battling of logic against unsupported assumption in others.

Through resistance and vigilance and curiosity and skepticism, we battle the ignorance within ourselves. Through the war of ideas, the wrong ideas will be burned within the fire, and the right ones will prevail. This battles the ignorance in others. What must ensure this victory is an objective mind. One cannot convince a stubborn mind that it is wrong, the stubborn mind must choose to open, and choose to believe that it can be wrong.

When everyone on Earth accepts the possibility of being wrong, peace becomes a real concept, something that can be achieved in time.

I think this reply is brilliant! Of course I may be wrong...

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The Ottoman Empire was in 1917 all but a nation-state (Empire being almost the antithesis of nation-state), yet it's responsible for the first large-scall genocide of the 20th century.

You mean 1915, I guess, the Armenian Genocide. (That alone deserves a nomination for the thread title.)

The ruling oligarchs, namely the Ittihad-Terakki regime of what remained of the empire, who had absolute dictatorial power since 1913, with an old figurehead of an emperor signing the death warrant even of his own brother-in-law under the gunpoint of Enver, the chief of the oligarchs and the mind behind the genocide, was far into the process of transforming the ruin of the empire into an ethno-religious "nation state". In 1915, the Ottoman Empire was no more an empire than the Empire of Central Africa. The Balkan countries had already seceded or lost in war, Syria and Iraq already under invasion and the most important, populous and influential non-Muslim community being massacred or mass-expelled.

Indeed, the current regime of the "nation state" of Turkey is a direct continuation of the Ittihad-Terakki dictatorship and not of the empire, which had all but nominally gone down in 1908 when they had first taken over the rule.

Your point is moot.
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[Sarathos]

Put me down for religion.

[Adrian II]

Yeah, people working only 8h per day instead of from dawn to dusk, having good medical care, education, enough money to fulfill their needs not just to sustain themselves is a real bummer.

[JR-]

The Manhattan Project.

given that Germany had their own atomic project i am jolly glad we got there first!