linuistical screwup, meant ended the stalemateOriginally Posted by CountArach
Re: The Great Game, another loss
linuistical screwup, meant ended the stalemate
Re: The Great Game, another loss
"Well, IF you compare it to crime, by your own reasoning, the police should handle it, no?": Yep. It should be done with law enforcement methods and anti-terrirism legislation, like the Mafia was delt with in its times.
Special frces can give a hand, but all should follow the rules of law
Of course, you can point out my contradictions in this, but I think USA and the rest of the world should deal with terrorism and crimes for what it is and not how they wanted be seen.
It is to give too much honour to Bin Laden. He is a mass criminal, just that. Not a Sheir, not a leader, just a gang leader.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Oh in that case you are right.
EDIT: Oh no... I just realised that within the last month I have agreed with CR, Frag and I believe TuffStuff at some point. I'm scared...
Last edited by CountArach; 10-08-2008 at 12:52.
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Re : Re: The Great Game, another loss
Ah, my favourite voice of reason. How can I not love you, Brenus?
I'm sorry, Kadagar, but for some strange reason, I agree with Brenus that the murder of three thousand civilians is a criminal act of an unprecedented scale.3000 people dead in historical terms... Let us say I find your reasoning well thought out, it also makes it evident that you are one of the greatest thinkers of the modern society.
No need to de-rail this topic though, but pretty please PM me with the list the other "greatest crimes in history" just for laughs
But then, I rather like Americans....
Re: The Great Game, another loss
I'm sorry, but I don't think that's reason enough. To punish some murderers who killed 3000-4000 civilians, coalition launched an attack that murdered many more civilians, brought hundreds of thousands on the brink of poverty, created a suitable situation for growing and selling of narcotics etc...
I'm certainly not gonna cry for Talibans or Bin Laden, but I can't support punishments, especially when that punishment is mostly felt by those not really responsible. After so many years, where is Bin Laden and his clique? It seems like the war is no longer about them. I could support action that's about justice and that's about stopping things like attack on the WTC from happening ever again. For me it should have been about capturing those responsible and helping Afghanistan stand on its own two feet.
But if it was about punishment, like let's ruin their country and kill their civilians, because their government refused to extradite Bin Laden, than the war waged for wrong reason, imho.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
No, for very simple facts. Mafias don't commit criminal acts against foreign countries, they commit against individual or organizations, mostly inside the countries which under they operate. Terrorrist factions commit crimes not against those generally implicated in destroying them but against innocent civilians of targeted nations, for a myriad of purposes. The fact that Afghanistan has no "police" (Which doesn't really matter) and protected the terrorrists, forcibly obliges the U.S.A. to invade the former country.
Furthermore, mafias are a blight and a cancer for the countries they are located in, incentivating corruption and the curbing of the laws of one's country, therefore detrimental to the development of the said country, therefore if the country wishes to develop and enforce it's law, it must crush the mafia, which is a criminal organization. Terrorrist groups, however, at least in Afghanistan's case (Which is directly linked to it's invasion), remained inside Afghanistan, without causing any detriment to the Taliban plans for the country, and didn't violate any Afghani law (Since I'm not an expert in Afghani law, I'll say "at least enough") to enforce a Taliban crackdown.
Bottomline: If the Taliban militias started fighting Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan (Which wouldn't happen since both follow the same basic guidelines: Islamic Fundamentalism), then I doubt the country would be invaded.
BLARGH!
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Jolt,
From their point of wiev, civilians are not innocent.Terrorrist factions commit crimes not against those generally implicated in destroying them but against innocent civilians of targeted nations, for a myriad of purposes
Look, if the US was a dictatorship then yes, you would be right... However, the US is a democracy, meaning in effect that the people, the civilians, are the one making the decisions, no?
So, attacking the people responcible for US foreign policies would make sence, would it not?
Look at what got attacked at 9/11, it wasnt a kindergarten, was it? It was the building representing the economy of the US, an economy many believe are built on blood of the innocent.
I think very few kids were in this building, am I right? But a lot of grownups working with world trade, would make sence, building was named world trade center.
The also attacked the pentagon, do I have to explain what pentagon symbolises? Again, this can in no way be seen as an innocent target.
Do not get me wrong, I am strongly against idiocy and killing in any way and/or form. I am trying t explain their mindset, and why they reason as they do.
Also, I must mention, the rest of the world was not as surprised as the americans were about the 9/11, how many deaths are the US responcible for the last century?
Payback is a female dog, sure. But many kind of saw it coming, and this is not the end of it.
Many people, specially in countries where US bombs has blown children to mincemeat, think the 9/11 was a moderate attack, quite controlled and well thought out.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
“I'm sorry, but I don't think that's reason enough. To punish some murderers who killed 3000-4000 civilians, coalition launched an attack that murdered many more civilians, brought hundreds of thousands on the brink of poverty, created a suitable situation for growing and selling of narcotics etc...”
Sarmatian, it is a reason, and honestly quite good one. The aim was not to punish civilians for what happened but to catch Bin Laden. Sheikh Omar refused to give a fellow follower of Islam to the Infidel so in no way the mighty USA (and others less mighty) would allowed this.
Then the stupid policy determined and followed by Bush and Co and the War in Iraq made the reconstruction in Afghanistan more difficult, etc.
I do understand your feeling remembering what happen to Serbia and Kosovo (I metohija).
Kadagar AV I do fully agree. For a lot of people it was finally pay-back time, USA finally tasting their own medicine.
I was in Novi Sad at the time, Serbia, country which just few months before was at the receiving end of Cruise Missile, which is a pilotless plane. The only difference for some was that at least the murderers (and more ironic for some of them, the same one they were fighting in Bosnia) was at least killed with their victims.
And yes, the Twins Towers were the siege of the same company making money on the misery of others, ignoring the distresses and miseries created by them. It is how Globalisation and International Trade is seen.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.
"I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
"You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
"Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"
Re: The Great Game, another loss
They're terrorists man, terrorists.
So TS to those who opposed the wars? TS to those who opposed Bush?Look, if the US was a dictatorship then yes, you would be right... However, the US is a democracy, meaning in effect that the people, the civilians, are the one making the decisions, no?
No, it doesn't. The people do not say who we ally with, this is up to government. We do not get to decide if we want to invade Iraq, this is up to the President and Congress.So, attacking the people responcible for US foreign policies would make sence, would it not?
These buildings were full of parents, husbands, wives, grandparents, foreign nationals. You do not intentionally target civilians. This is what happened.Look at what got attacked at 9/11, it wasnt a kindergarten, was it? It was the building representing the economy of the US, an economy many believe are built on blood of the innocent.
So TS to those hate supporting children? And what of the children who lost family?I think very few kids were in this building, am I right? But a lot of grownups working with world trade, would make sence, building was named world trade center.
And yet again, there were people working there who were not a key part in foreign policy and who did not affect the terrorists.The also attacked the pentagon, do I have to explain what pentagon symbolises? Again, this can in no way be seen as an innocent target.
Fanatics don't need reason, they have their religion and twisted thinking. Their mindset is that of intolerance and hate. You do not need to lecture us on how a terrorist works.Do not get me wrong, I am strongly against idiocy and killing in any way and/or form. I am trying t explain their mindset, and why they reason as they do.
So it justifies the killing of 3,000 innocents when a past government that these people had no involvement in? (I am assuming you are referring to the Korea-Vietnam-Latin America years)Also, I must mention, the rest of the world was not as surprised as the americans were about the 9/11, how many deaths are the US responcible for the last century?
Really?Many people, specially in countries where US bombs has blown children to mincemeat, think the 9/11 was a moderate attack, quite controlled and well thought out.
HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
-Martok
Re: The Great Game, another loss
See this is where I have a qualm. I fully understand where the terrorists are coming from if I was poor destitute and hungry I would be angry at the people who were enabling my biggest enemy and lap up power politics thinly veiled as a religious war. Chances are I wouldn't really have a problem with these decadents being killed either. The US government has been ignoring the premise of blowback for years and it is now biting us. At the same time I must sit down and ask why must we fight this people with one hand tied behind our back? These people want us dead and we are sitting here fighting hog tied. Bound by these rules of engagement which our enemy will not follow. Past American policy has now put us between a rock and a hard place. I sympathize with the average Iraqi or Palestinian or Afghan but at the end of the day I sympathize with the average American more. It of course should have never come down to that choice but we can thank our father.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Swedishfish>
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. You know, when Bin Laden ran around with CIA support, messing up Soviet targets, he was called freedom fighter... When he attacks you he becomes a terrorist?They're terrorists man, terrorists.
Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of Bin laden. From my perspective he should spend the rest of his life in jail. However, there are lots of americans I can say the same thing about.
I just don't think the US has much right to claim moral highground. Again, CIA-sponsored freedom fighter one day, terrorist the other.
As an american you should be familiar with the term collateral damage?So TS to those who opposed the wars? TS to those who opposed Bush?
Again, I am not defending this perspective, I am explaining it.
Are you saying US bombs has killed no one who wasn't saddam-friendly or Bin Laden-friendly?
Again, be careful about claiming moral highground.
And who elects this said president?The people do not say who we ally with, this is up to government. We do not get to decide if we want to invade Iraq, this is up to the President and Congress.
And when he, by your own example, decided to invade Iraq, I didn't exactly see massive protests from the people... The white house wasnt exacly blockaded by angry voters, was it?
Again, they are not civilians in these peoples eyes.These buildings were full of parents, husbands, wives, grandparents, foreign nationals. You do not intentionally target civilians. This is what happened.
First of all they are responcible since they vote.
Secondly, they wage economig warfare against other countries...
Are you seriosly claiming the Pentagon is not to be considered a perfectly valid target?And yet again, there were people working there who were not a key part in foreign policy and who did not affect the terrorists.
Fixed it for you.Fanatics don't need reason, they have their religion and twisted thinking. Their mindset is that of intolerance and hate. You do not need to lecture us on how an American works.
Geez, half your population see Iraq as a holy war, as a crusade.
They see you the same way you see them.
From my personal perspective, I believe both the americans and the fanatical muslims are about equally
I am referring to more than that...So it justifies the killing of 3,000 innocents when a past government that these people had no involvement in? (I am assuming you are referring to the Korea-Vietnam-Latin America years)
Sucking money from the third world, manipulating regimes and so on... You can be responcible for deaths even though you don't drop bombs, you know.
Really.Really?
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Ok. So if we dont have the moral high ground and we see the war as "crusade" Should we start killing the civilians? Cut of hands? feet? throw infants in the river? you are really influenced by a small minority of people you realize this? I doubt you have ever been here.
Last edited by Strike For The South; 10-08-2008 at 21:54.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Maybe we can all be friends?
If you spent less money on bombs, and more on world aid, the terrorists would have a hell of a time finding a new generation.
It is a long-term process, but I think it would work.
Some village is found supporting terrorists, build a well and a school... It would cost the fraction of one single bomb.
I am being optimistic here, but soemone must be.
If you start fighting hate with love, the "average joe" will quickly come around... It is hard spreading hate propaganda in a village, when the villages well is build by americans, and where the best students in the american built school gets a schoolarship in the US as reward, and a green card, allowing him to send money home to his parents...
A more cost-effective solution to remove the base from terrorists.
However, it is hard to win elections with 50-year programs... It is so much easier to "shock and awe" a startled Iraqi population wondering what the heck they had to do with 9/11.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
There's a line between firing on Soviet military targets and planning the flying of planes into civilian buildings.
Intentionally flying a plane into a civilian structure is not collateral damage.As an american you should be familiar with the term collateral damage?
Of course, but then again, many of those Saddam supporters were known party members in key positions or military fanatics and Osama-supporters are typically militant terrorists.Are you saying US bombs has killed no one who wasn't saddam-friendly or Bin Laden-friendly?
I have never claimed high ground here. I do not support any killing of civilians, but in war, especially in a war where your enemy hides in cave sonly to bomb a convoy collateral damage cannot be avoided.Again, be careful about claiming moral highground.
Again, what of those who do not vote for said president? Just because you voted for Bush does not mean you deserve a good bombing.And who elects this said president?
Bush told me, my state, my country, and the planet I live on that Saddam had or had the capability of creating weapons of mass destruction. When someone makes that kind of claim to this many people, the people will rally in what they are told is a grave threat. This is simple deceit. Even when Bush said "THEY HAS TEH ANTHRAX" many, national and foreign, were skeptical.And when he, by your own example, decided to invade Iraq, I didn't exactly see massive protests from the people... The white house wasnt exacly blockaded by angry voters, was it?
In these people's eyes, they are right, they're God commands them to do this, and everyone, you included, are to be cleansed from His earth. You obviously don't take this in any seriousness unless you are a militant. (Not accusing you of being one)Again, they are not civilians in these peoples eyes.
Well hell, it all makes sense now. You vote, you deserve a good bombing.First of all they are responcible since they vote.
And how does one wage economic warfare? Blockading? I doubt Jimbo the burger flipper really had much to do with that.Secondly, they wage economig warfare against other countries...
When intentionally targeting civilians, no it is not. You honestly think the terrorist wanted to take out the military leadership? They had a whole lot of other places to do it.Are you seriosly claiming the Pentagon is not to be considered a perfectly valid target?
Oh crap, and you know it.Fixed it for you.
Geez, half your population see Iraq as a holy war, as a crusade.
I sure think they need a good bombing as well, the Arab civilians. Hell, let's just do a lot of genocide. Party anyone?They see you the same way you see them.
Don't ever, ever, compare myself or my thinking to those who are killing innocent civilians.
It's a real eye opener when you, you know, actually live with the peopleFrom my personal perspective, I believe both the americans and the fanatical muslims are about equally
Civilians can? Mothers, grandparents, children? Wow, isn't that interesting?Sucking money from the third world, manipulating regimes and so on... You can be responcible for deaths even though you don't drop bombs, you know.
HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
-Martok
Re: The Great Game, another loss
The problem is we are passed that. Can we minimize the threat? Yes. but it wont ever go away. There is to much power and money in the America hating industry. We already give the most money in the world and there is still poverty here. Jose isnt nearly as cute in a tall tee as he is in a poncho. Im sick and tired of helping others when we need help here.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
depends on what you mean with "here...
I've been to two places in the US.... One of them was pretty much against the war, and had the same wievs as me (new york).
Other one was Missouri.... It was before 9/11, but I am rather convinced they are polishing their knightly armour and great-cross flagpoles as we speak...
It of course depends on where you are in the US...
But yes, people all over teh world DO watch Faux news, and it is claimed to be the no. 1 channel in the US... so it is not wierd people think the general american has the same view as faux, as it is the biggest channel...
Re: The Great Game, another loss
So you really dont know? You are just assuming.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
[QUOTE=Kadagar_AV;2032369]depends on what you mean with "here...
Well hell, that's like me basing my opinion on the Swedish because I've only visited Stockholm and Goteburg. (I've been to two places in the US.... One of them was pretty much against the war, and had the same wievs as me (new york).)
I think they have a family to get toOther one was Missouri.... It was before 9/11, but I am rather convinced they are polishing their knightly armour and great-cross flagpoles as we speak...
I think Faux News is the only one who claims this.But yes, people all over teh world DO watch Faux news, and it is claimed to be the no. 1 channel in the US... so it is not wierd people think the general american has the same view as faux, as it is the biggest channel...
HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
-Martok
Re: The Great Game, another loss
SFTS> Indeed. They might have started reading other books than the bible and watching other stuff than god channel and faux news since I was there.
SwedishFish> Both Stockholm and Göteborg are pretty close to each other when it comes to politics... Not a very good retort.
of course, Sweden is WAY smaller than the US so it is not comparable. In Sweden, the biggest difference is between the rural areas and cities. I would say Göteborg and Stockholm has the same perspective in about 99% of the issues.
Also, if Faux News gets to keep claiming they are the no. 1 news channel for The US year after year, then can you blame non-americans for believing it?
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Actually, that pattern "city mouse - country mouse" repeats in the USA quite reliably. Most small towns and rural areas are quite conservative while most urban centers -- especially the biggest ten cities and any university town -- are strongly liberal. The suburbs are a mish-mash.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Sociologically the explanation for this is very easy. People in the cities are thrust together with a lot of diversity of background, religion, viewpoint and national origin and choice of lifestyle, and have to tolerate it. Rural areas tend to be homogenous, resist and encounter changes much more slowly, and are more fearful of change (in part because they're so much slower to experience it.)
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Yes, the war was waged for one reason, but conducted under the visage of another. The Taliban were unable, not unwilling, to remove Bin-Laden.
As for the second part of that fists paragraph, are you talking about the U.S?
"Women can work", I hope you are not suggesting that women actualy have it better, in any reasonable degree, these days.
(I would link an article, but for some reason John Pilger's websiteis not up and running)
Sig by Durango
-Oscar WildeNow that the House of Commons is trying to become useful, it does a great deal of harm.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
I understand your point. I must admit that I didn't cry a river when it happened. After all, that same US just a short time before killed just as many, if not more of my countrymen, but I didn't see it as some kind of divine justice. Those people in WTC were innocent. Civilians without any real influence on politics or advanced political thought. I was afraid that it might be (mis)used in the similar way as Hitler used Reichstag fire. It turned out that I was mostly right. After so many years in Afghanistan, the country is in disarray, many people have lost their lives, God knows how many lost their homes, drug trade is flourishing and so on... At the same time, almost no one from the top of Al-Qaeda has been caught and certainly not Bin Laden, Talibans had not been defeated and the country hadn't moved an inch towards democracy. Until that happens, Afghanistan is a total failure. Maybe American presence there stopped another attack on US, it probably did, but for me Afghanistan civilian casualties are not less worthy than American. Americans probably think differently. For them, 5000 killed Afghan civilians are acceptable if it saves 5000 American lives, but for me they're the same. It used to really annoy me when some US official says casualties in Iraq are XXXX, and he includes only American casualties. At least acknowledge how many Iraqis died. At least show that you are aware of those people. You don't have to build monuments for them and carve every name into the stone, but show that you're not totally oblivious. They had families, friends, pets, jobs and hobbies, too. But understanding that would mean elevating them to the status of human beings, instead of collateral damage and/or statistics, and then conscience might have something to say.
Would the situation in Afghanistan been handled much better if it hadn't been for Iraq? Possibly, but that's no excuse. If the attack on Afghanistan was made to make the world a safer place (including US and Afghanistan) I could support it, but if it's done as punishment, or to save American lives at the price of Afghan lives, I really can't. I hope that Obama will turn things around there. He showed much more awareness than McCain, but time is passing, death toll is rising and nothing's happening. I wished that someone in the US take at least a moral responsibility for that.
Re: The Great Game, another loss
For those that have argued Brigadier Carleton-Smith is misguided, it seems that others are coming to the same conclusions.
Facing a spreading Taliban insurgency, the White House has begun a comprehensive review of policy towards Afghanistan. A National Intelligence Estimate, representing the considered view of America's 16 spy agencies, is now being prepared.
Its conclusions are thought to be deeply pessimistic, stressing the systemic weakness of Afghanistan's central government and the damage caused by the burgeoning narcotics trade, which may account for about half of the country's entire economy.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: AW: The Great Game, another loss
Oh cut the crap already.
The U.S. did not break Afghanistan. The Afghans broke Afghanistan when they turned their country into a safe haven for global terrorists. The Afghans own it, it is their problem, reconstruction is their responsibility. As long as they piss away their money, however acquired, on weapons,stolen Toyota pick-ups and Rolexes for dumb-** tribal potentates, they have only themselves to blame. If they can't organise an army to take care of their national security, big deal. It is their loss.
The only reason why western troops are there is to secure the western interest of keeping the Taliban out of power. And contrary to myth and newspaper speculation we can keep it up longer than the Prophet cares to know.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re : Re: AW: The Great Game, another loss
Rubbish, Adrian. It's all the fault of Western leftist intellectuals and
Wait, wrong thread.
I meant to say that I can keep it up longer than the Prophet cares to know as well and all you girls love it and
Wait, that's the other forum I frequent.
Third time's a charm: I would agree with your post. The reason for going in was to avenge and to prevent. The strategy for going out has been to install some sort of stable government that can keep the Taliban, AQ and others at bay. This, it would appear, is not going to succeed any time soon.
So, as a question, is there an alternative strategy that you know of other than staying there forever? We can keep it up, but so can they. Tribal warfare has been the national pasttime since time immemorial.
Maybe we can lure the Russians back in. What if we all dress up as Georgians and moon in a northern direction?
Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 10-09-2008 at 21:21.
Re: Re : Re: AW: The Great Game, another loss
Invade Pakistan, cut it up again, put a fence around the unworkable north-western part and throw away the key.
I mean it. But I don't have time to elaborate, my 72 virgins are crying out for me.
Last edited by Adrian II; 10-09-2008 at 21:18.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: AW: The Great Game, another loss
Um. I can't say that "we invade, and if your country gets screwed up that's your fault" implies very good planning or strategic forethought on the U.S. leadership's part.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
Re: AW: The Great Game, another loss
Afghanistan has never been a country. I has always been a collection of warring tribes and sects. Even the ruthless Taliban never controlled the entire territory. All the Americans (and subsequent Nato operations) did was chase them from power and install various rivals.
The Americans don't 'own' it, nor does Nato. That's just Colin Powell's barnyard sale nonsense. World politics is not a barnyard sale.
If you want to blame anyone for lack of forethought, blame the Taliban.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: The Great Game, another loss
Oh, there's no doubt. Afghanistan is becoming an icnreasingly losing battle. And until we can haul ass out of Iraq and put the men and material in places we actually need it, it will continue to be as it is. Only the death count will get higher.
HOW ABOUT 'DEM VIKINGS
-Martok
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