New factions?

[Foot]

Language can only take us back so far, and it is very difficult to track without corroborating evidence, which we just don't have for our period in that region. We only know that the slavic language group only appears in the AD period (can't recall the exact date). Before that we just have no evidence for that, and the evidence you put forward is no evidence at all. So we cannot make the claim on that area that would allow us to place a faction there. Nor can you.

Foot

[Oqlanth]

Well well
I first have to say hi! :D
I saw this posts months ago and wanted to join and post something but i didn't. Well After all hard work in summer I forgot about it. Now I see the post again (and it reaches 30s pages!!!) and decided to sent a reply and my comments.

First of all I have to start from the last. Georgians and Armenians don't speak Russian or Slavic language. Even Georgian isn't an indo-german language!!!

Well I noticed Pergamon is selected as one of the ten. This is good for me!... Pergamon is a good city!... I like there :D But this makes things hard for Pontos faction in EB II because of limited regions in area!

My suggestion as a new faction in EBII is Odrysians (Odrysia). I think in vanilla (i think you call unmodified and un patched R:TW as 'vanilla') CA's Thracian faction tries to resemble Odrysians.

Well about Odrysians; They were the people what Hellens called barbarians :D. Their homeland is modern Turkey's European parts and eastern Bulgaria.

Well what makes them interesting. Their history!
They are established at 5th century BC as a kingdom of a tribal confederacy of southern Thracian tribes. Well for the well known nature of Thracian people :D they were mostly seperated within next century. But they somehow achieved to stand. Later they fought with Macedons...again and again. This continues at the time of 'Thracian Basileus' Lysimachus. Lysimachus went away but Odrysains remained.

At the time of EB II starts (272BC) They were just beaten by Celts. Later on they were forced to east mostly to coastal cities of (mostly Hellenic) eastern Black Sea.

Well but things more interesting about them is they successed to return their homeland just 60 years later. They destory Tylis and they totaly 'rejoin' the game of struggle. Their wars against other powers continued till end of game time! Their story finished as a being client kingdom of Rome like many others :(

Well What is the handicaps. As you mentioned you can't increase number of regions/provinces it means there are same number of provinces at Thracia just like in vanilla... And at the beginning of the game they are fallen back to Black Sea cost. This is a problem.
But;
This can be solved as making them faction with no province like barbarian faction in BI. Well with permenant forts which is establised at the edge of Black Sea cost this can solve the problem. Putting with some good stuff which i see in EB1.1 Getai like uniting the lands to Odrysians will also make things more enjoyable and also historical.

Their capital is Seuthopolis. And in M II:TW terms it resembles a castle settlement. This is another option to move Tylis to Seuthopolis.

Another option moving place of settlement more closer to blacksea but i don't like this idea much.

And about their units. I see many units for Odrysians in EB1.1 here;
Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry)
Thraikioi Peltastai (Thraikian Peltasts)
Thraikioi Doryphoroi (Thracian Light Spearmen)
Taxeis Triballoi (Triballi Infantry)
Thraikioi Prodromoi (Thracian Medium Cavalry)
Thraikioi Hippeis (Thracian Light Cavalry)

I read something about 'unit limit' I don't know much about scripting but in EB1.1 there are already many Odrysian units.

Ahh... Last notes about their culture. They are most 'Hellenised' of Thracians. So they may have basic Hellen but especialy Macedon units because they are in touch with Macedons more than Southern Greeks.

Well in their time if you say Thracian to an Hellen or Macedon or Roman probably the culture and warriors of Odrysians will come to their mind.

Meanwhile I see a unit name as Gallo-Thracian Infantry...It will be suitable to Odrysians because after they got into contact with Celts were effected by them.

Well my another suggestion is Bithynia but after seeing Pergamun selected unfortunately it seems to be imposible.

Well my other 'minor' suggestions are Bosporan kingdom. They can be a force Sarmatians and makes them not to spread all nothern part of map.
An also another Ilyrian faction will be good...I know this makes area crowded but...
other suggestion is Scythians. Yes are are decreasing power but they achieved to stand for three more centuries!!! And they continue to struggle against Germanic tribes.
I do not know much about ancient central europa but leaving Sweboz there alone is not good :D
And one last minor suggestion is Celtiberian faction, Numantia/Arevaci.

Well may suggestions are those. If you want to ask more about Odrysians feel free to PM and mail me, I just gave overview not to fill with forum with stuff :D

Ahh one last note. I see something about Samurai :D Samurai exists after 12th century (AD!) and the tern Samurai used much more later :D

You are doing great job to creating a full historical mod like this!

Cihan

[IohannesMarcvs]

then how do you suppose they all speak the russian group of languages and use the cyrillic alphabet? plus, if records of my people (Belorussians) are correct, Minsk existed for over 2500 years! The Kievan Rus didn't come till the vikings, but there were slavs at that time.

Oh wow. This post was so ridiculous it actually compelled me to register...

Georgian is a South Caucasian language that isn't even very closely related to other Caucasian languages, such as Chechen, much less Slavic or any Indo-European languages. Armenian is related to the Slavic languages insofar as it is also Indo-European, but something like 4000 years of separate evolution separate them, and they are not particularly close because of this.

As for the Lithuanian language you mentioned: you're getting slightly closer, as the Baltic languages are fairly close to the Slavic languages, but it is still very distinct from it.

To spell it out: Georgian, Lithuanian, and Armenian are not Slavic, at all. If you've ever heard these languages spoken, or seen them written, you'd realize this. The only reason Lithuanians, Georgians, and Armenians might speak a "Russian group of languages" as you said is because of hundreds of years of Russian imperialism and promotion of language conformity. Not only in Imperial Russia, but especially in the Soviet Union; the Soviets were notorious for the promotion of Russian over indigenous languages.

And as for them all using Cyrillic? That's like saying because the Latin alphabet is based on the ancient Phoenician alphabet, every European is, in fact, Phoenician (or their modern equivalents, anyway).

I hope that helped.

[Megas Methuselah]

Oh wow. This post was so ridiculous it actually compelled me to register...

Yeah, it was pretty ridiculous, but that ridiculous?! Lol!

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yeah, it was pretty ridiculous, but that ridiculous?! Lol!

I agree, and I am not just saying that because I love seeing my new obnoxious signature take up half my screen when viewing the thread.

[bobbin]

then how do you suppose they all speak the russian group of languages and use the cyrillic alphabet? plus, if records of my people (Belorussians) are correct, Minsk existed for over 2500 years!

I think the Georgians have the own alphabet as well (lovely sample here:მხედრული) and as for Minsk being 2500 years old? 1100 is more likely.

I agree, and I am not just saying that because I love seeing my new obnoxious signature take up half my screen when viewing the thread.

[Foot]

I'm not sure on the heritage of the georgian alphabet, but I believe it came into existence at around the same time as the Armenian alphabet did (about 5th cent AD). The Armenian alphabet is largely based on the greek alphabet. Its about as close to cyrillic as you can possibly not get.

Foot

[bobbin]

Yep theres even a funny myth about the two (georgian & armenian) being created by the same person.
IIRC the current alphabet in use is from 11th century.

[Oqlanth]

Meanwhile I noticed my previous post has many terrible grammar errors. I can't find how to edit it. Please excuse me. I wrote it after long sleepless night!

I also noticed Seuthopolis destroyed by Celts at 279 BC just seven years before the game starts (well I am not good at memorising dates like many historians around me :D ) so the option of changing Tylis to Seuthopolis won't be historical.

But Making it horde like faction occupying some permenent castles seems to be good idea to me. At the time game start they were subject to Ptolemians. But probably they have much more independence than Baktria at 272 BC. Probably making them full ally (like Pontos or Parthians with Seleucians...trade right , military access, alliance) with Ptolemians solves this problem. Well they are also with along with Ptolemians against Seleucians :D

About station of Thracian (Odrysian Thrace) at 273 BC in game terms.... Hmm Triballi... They were also beaten by Celts forced to east and 'pacified'! To represent this there will be Eletheroi Triballi army around -probably south- of Tylis. Tylis is occupied with celtic, celto-thracian army like in EB 1.1. Well putting an expedian force of Tylis to near Odrysian occupied forts will be an idea. They did not attack and destroy Tylis just after they destoyed their own capital. Military might of early Tylis is one of the factor. Second factor is they are continuing to fighting..but with others :D

Well about units of Odrysians. Getae only join Odrysian at the very early of kingdom (5th century BC) so Getae can be only subject nation. I don't know much about game machanics but I try to say they will not be native of Odrysians.

About Triballi... Unlike Getae they never be a subject of Odrysians! But at early 3th century BC they are also beaten by Celts and forced to east. So they are suitable.

Meanwhile i noticed this in one of the previous posts in under this topic;

5.Odrysae Thraikians= Were driven into the Bosporus in 273BC by the Celts. Made a comeback and took Thrace bak in 214BC under the king Pleuratus. Would have some unique units. Daco/Getic,Hellenic/Illyrian influenced culture.
NOTE: were different to the Getae brood
Settlements(to start with)= town on the black sea, Olbia? something accurate.
would be expected to to take Tylis and Uskudama(traditional odrysae capital) from the Celts

Well first part is true but I don't think Odrysians hace Illyrian or Illyrian style military units. They amde contact with Celts and and have celtic influenced units and also Hellenic influenced units. And about Gatea and Dacia I mentioned before.
And traditional Odrysian capital is Seuthopolis and it is totaly destroyed by Celts.

Well What is Odrysia;
It is probably the name of the a clan probably not a separate tribe (is similar to Saka and Saka Rukae) which unified Thrace at 5th BC under a kingdom of a same name. But their Kingdom divided into two. Especialy southern parts known as Odrysia. For 3th BC southern Thracians mostly known as Odrysian people.


List of Rulers suitable for family members at the beginning of EB II;

Seuthes III reign 343-300(?) BC
Kotys -son of Seuthes III- did not reign as a king exiled Prince of Odrysia
Pleuratus II (Thracian) 213 BC-208 BC -Not from the royal line but he is the one who was destroyed Tylis...
Teres III -son of Kotys- reign 255-200 BC

Well Family Tree of Odrysai faction may be like this at 272 BC;

Seuthes (probably death)
I
Kotys (Faction Leader)
I
Teres (Children or very young and Faction Heir)

*Pleuratus (probably very young general at the beginning, not a family member)


bout Odrysian armies. About 1/4 of the Odrysians are are mounted. Most of them are are light skirmishers. So beginning army probably will be similar; With one heavier cavarly and two light cavalry with many (6-7) Thracian infantry.
Here is a sample idea;

Faction leader -Kotys-
Thracian Medium Cavalry
Thracian Elite Infantry
(This one is probably in a fort at coast of Black Sea which represted exiled elite of Odrysai if Faction heir -Teres- is decided to start over as an adult he may be added to this or divided this into two forts)

General -Pleuratus-
Thracian Peltast
Thracian Peltast
Thracian Light Cavalry
Thracian Light Cavalry
Thracian Light Spearmen
Thracian Light Spearmen
Thracian Light Spearmen
(this one represent more 'commoner' folk of Odrysia in plains of South eastern Thrace under Pleuratus. They are also in service of Ptolemians so ready for action! :D)

Well about traits....A forager trait will be great. Thracians were natural foragers so it will be ideal for them...There may be special traits to represent their satiation.

Well it is all for Odrysai for now.

[bovi]

I can't find how to edit it.

I believe this is because you are still a junior member of this forum. You will be upgraded after you have a handful of posts without spamming or offensive behaviour, should take a day or four after you have 10 posts I think.

[Oqlanth]

I believe this is because you are still a junior member of this forum. You will be upgraded after you have a handful of posts without spamming or offensive behaviour, should take a day or four after you have 10 posts I think.

ohh.... ok thank you :D

[Megas Methuselah]

@Bovi:

You mean if all my posts were nothing but spam since the fortunate day I joined you guys, then I'd still be a junior member? Wow, that's tough justice.

Btw, about that weird incident a long time ago, with the mirror and all, sorry, man. This apology was long overdue.

[Jolt]

Well what about the slavs? Like russians, armenians, georgians, lithuanians, belarus, ukraine, and others? might be able to pile them up, and i THINK they existed in that time. oh and if anyone asks, im russian.

then how do you suppose they all speak the russian group of languages and use the cyrillic alphabet? plus, if records of my people (Belorussians) are correct, Minsk existed for over 2500 years! The Kievan Rus didn't come till the vikings, but there were slavs at that time.

If the URSS had won the Cold War, who knows if you would be saying French and British were slavs.

If you look into a thread somewhere called Armenia, you'll find my general explanation of the "origins" and evolution of the Caucasian ethnical culture from most Northern Middle East, and it's restriction in the current Caucasus region (namely, Georgia and Armenia). Even the Caucasian ethnicity per se wasn't connected to the Indo-European ethnicities, so you could say that the Germans, Italics and Greeks have had more connection to the Slav ethnicity then Georgia or Armenia, in remote times.

[Oqlanth]

If the URSS had won the Cold War, who knows if you would be saying French and British were slavs.

This is the reason of it... They lost it and now there are people who thinks everyone except Galapakos Islands are or once slav!

[vonhaupold]

I think the cyrilic alphabet is based on the greek alphabet and first appears around the 9th century AD.

Simply stated, the fact that "slavic" nations use the cyrilic alphabet is irrelevant to the time frame for the game.

[a completely inoffensive name]

These are my predicted factions:

1. Pergamon
2. Bartix Bosporan Kingdom

If I get at least 50% of my predictions right you all owe me a bottle of Coca-Cola.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Only if you solve the outcome (actual number) of:

+[+]

[Sir Edward]

Only if you solve the outcome (actual number) of:

+[+]

i'll take a stab and say 42.


Also a revised list of factions I think will make it into EB2 (but will not be upset if EB team can choose more appropriate ones.

1. Belgae
2. Bosphorian Kingdom
3. Arevaci
4. Pergamon
5. Boii
6. Atropatene
7. Massyli
8. Nabataea
9. Gandhara Satrap
10. Empty for scripting purposes

[vonhaupold]

I guess I'll take a crack at this and make a prediction.

1. Pergamon
2. Galatia
3. Numidia
4. Illyria
5. Belgae
6. Syracuse
7. Massilia
8. Cetl Iberian
9. Turdetani
10. Some Thracian faction

[Oqlanth]

Well;
Here is my list;
1-Pergamon (already choosen so I put her in first)
2-Bosphorian Kingdom (why? Because interesting place... Can also be resisting force against Sarmatians)
3-Celtiberian / Arevaci (well after all Celtiberian suggests :D hehe Well Small Iberia needs another faction too :D :D )
4- Thracian / Odrysians (Well this is my suggestion... :D )
5 and 6 - I think EBII team put two factio in central Europa...But i am not sure which ones but I highly expect :D

Well I also like to see Numidians , Scythians and Illyrians but i noticed too much 'negative' comments about 'their impossibility as a playable EBII faction' I hope those imposibilites reduced in time

And I remember I gave a promise (it becomes an oath for me! :D ) that I will give detailed info about both EBII thracian units and detailed information for 'why odrysians' must be in EBII'...
And now I am continueing research my another study which is on Kommanes Megaes slows down the processes... :(

[a completely inoffensive name]

I can't find a good signature yet!

Just copy mine.

[Megas Methuselah]

Just copy mine.

However, mine is obviously of superior quality. Despite this, if anyone copies it, I'll issue a new proclamation demanding every orgah to flame you. Proceed at your own risk.

[Tellos Athenaios]

i'll take a stab and say 42.

Wrong, but here's a hint: the code is equivalent to:

Ook. Ook. Ook? Ook! Ook. Ook. Ook! Ook?

IIRC the syntax rules.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Well I also like to see Numidians , Scythians and Illyrians but i noticed too much 'negative' comments about 'their impossibility as a playable EBII faction' I hope those imposibilites reduced in time

And I remember I gave a promise (it becomes an oath for me! :D ) that I will give detailed info about both EBII thracian units and detailed information for 'why odrysians' must be in EBII'...
And now I am continueing research my another study which is on Kommanes Megaes slows down the processes... :(

Scythians were in decline and Illyrians were yet to be organized enough, but although no official statement from the team exists on the subject, it is the general consensus among the fans that some Numidian faction will be in. Though it will certainly not be just a generic "numidian" faction, but rater one of the two main numidian tribes of the period, the Maesyli and the Masaesyli (or both).


And for the Thraikians, the Odrysian kingdom is the right period (founded c. 280, after the celtic ravagings), but I'm not thoroughly convinced, though. Particularly as I don't think they expanded much beyond their original borders. Maybe your research will change my mind, though...

[Strategos Alexandros]

Only if you solve the outcome (actual number) of:

+[+]

Syn error

[Oqlanth]

Well Mithridates VI Eupator, you are right. It will be an impolite action to 'history fans' (well most of the people outside calls us history freaks :D ) to make 'numidia' faction like vanilla. Well except my apologising to using these simple generalising.

About Scythians, you are right. Last great Scythian expansion was at king Ateas times(not sure may be around 330~ BC) but as I remembered they made last good fights against Romans, Pontos and Germans (goths) from 3th Century BC till they were destroyed in 3rd century AD. So they will be nice 'conflicting and struggling faction'. They also achieved to built some other states in these times.

Well for Illyrians there was 'legendary' Pleuratus' dynasty of Illyria betweem 344 - 168 BC. You may check them they are one of the interesting faction of their time.

And about Odrysain...hehe ...I don't want to talk much about them till I completed my study but I can at least say this;
Odrysain kingdom established at 5th century BC... In 279 BC they were beaten by Celts but not destroyed and they successed at 'reestablising' their kingdoms and this makes them more interesting as a faction :D

Well meanwhile I am making research Odrysians I also find Tylis interesting :D ... Unfortunately they were not long lived faction :( ...Destroyed by Odrysai :D hehehe

Meanwhile I love Mithridates VI Eupator! i mean historical one :D ) ... He was 'Last King' hehehe! :D

And also thanks for giving advice for signature :D

[General Appo]

Well Mithridates VI Eupator, you are right. It will be an impolite action to 'history fans' (well most of the people outside calls us history freaks :D ) to make 'numidia' faction like vanilla.

You do know that the EB team are probably the biggest history freaks this side of the retirement home?

[Oqlanth]

You do know that the EB team are probably the biggest history freaks this side of the retirement home?

HEHEHE!!!... You are right!... It is good to know I am not alone! :D hehehe!!!

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Well Mithridates VI Eupator, you are right. It will be an impolite action to 'history fans' (well most of the people outside calls us history freaks :D ) to make 'numidia' faction like vanilla. Well except my apologising to using these simple generalising.

No need!
I merely wanted to clarify which Numidian factions might be considered.

About Scythians, you are right. Last great Scythian expansion was at king Ateas times(not sure may be around 330~ BC) but as I remembered they made last good fights against Romans, Pontos and Germans (goths) from 3th Century BC till they were destroyed in 3rd century AD. So they will be nice 'conflicting and struggling faction'. They also achieved to built some other states in these times..

True, I would fiund it interesting to see a Scythian faction too, struggling to regain their former glory, and drive those pesky Sauromatae from the steppes, but I think the EB-team has basically said that they won't make it, as there are other kingdoms, that were on the rise at the time, that might be in more dire need of a faction slot. And actually, this might be a good decition.

And about Odrysain...hehe ...I don't want to talk much about them till I completed my study but I can at least say this;
Odrysain kingdom established at 5th century BC... In 279 BC they were beaten by Celts but not destroyed and they successed at 'reestablising' their kingdoms and this makes them more interesting as a faction :D

Well meanwhile I am making research Odrysians I also find Tylis interesting :D ... Unfortunately they were not long lived faction :( ...Destroyed by Odrysai :D hehehe

Yes, they did reestabilsh themselves shortly after the Celtic invasion, that's what I meant. Didn't know they were as old as 5:th century, though.
I found a book in the library about the Odrysians some time ago, but didn't have time to read it thoroughly then. However, from what I gather, they were a rather warlike people, and an interesting Helleno-Thraikian mix, so though I still have my doubts, I guess they could be an Interesting faction.

Meanwhile I love Mithridates VI Eupator! i mean historical one :D ) ... He was 'Last King' hehehe! :D

Yeah, he's been my "idol" since his first guest-starring in AoE... There is something appealing in that mix of enlightened, philhellenic ruler, and despotic tyrant.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, what do you mean with "Last King"?

[Hax]

Last Pontic king, IIRC.