Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
Oh, I'm sorry, I live in some alternate reality where an actual legal system of just punishment for crimes is not compared to death camps for ethnic cleansing.Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
No, because the US government is not an evil entity, a force against humanity. The Nazis were an abomination, and I hate them.I wonder if you would apply that same rationale to the US military, which has certainly enabled many attrocities to be committed by the US government.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
Agreed.I wonder if you would apply that same rationale to the US military, which has certainly enabled many attrocities to be committed by the US government.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
You're deflecting.
I said that describing the camps as punishment camps was a true statement.
You said that the statement was false because they were also death camps.
I explained that death was one punishment Jews were forced to endure. Therefore, the description was accurate.
Whether the Jews deserved to be punished has no bearing on the description, and no one is making that argument - or comparing legal systems. To describe the camps as "punishment camps" in no way discounts what the Jews experienced; and is, in fact, more severe than the term "concentration".
Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.No, because the US government is not an evil entity, a force against humanity.
To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.
"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.
Good to know, but don't let your emotions cloud your ability to come to logical conclusions.The Nazis were an abomination, and I hate them.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 10-12-2008 at 03:15.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
Holy... crap. I find myself agreeing with something Panzer is saying. It figures it would take something so wildly out there as honoring Nazi soldiers' service for this fate to come to pass!Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.
To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.
"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
Good.
People have been making too much of PJ's posts lately. I understand where he is coming from. Usually it is a misunderstanding of the Third Reich that leads people to believe that hell opened up on earth and demons took over the bodies of the entire German populace. They forget that honorable German men, women and Children died in the war - ones who didn't live near death camps and honestly had no idea that their government was slaughtering "undesirables" en masse. Who would believe that about their government especially when the governments main policy was to lie to the German people and keep any racial decisions tightly classified?
In order to understand humanity better we would be well served to learn the right lessons from WW2.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
People have learned nothing. People think the lesson from WWII is speak in awed terms about the horrors of the Holocaust and support Israel.
I've been saying for years, that a lot of the mindsets floating around since 9/11.... my country, right or wrong.... this irrational throwing away of critical thought to support anything that is construed as for the good of country, and against enemies.... if that's the definition of patriotism, not a single one of those people should have ANY issue with anyone who participated in the Third Reich. Because I'm sure all those people were saying exactly the same thing.
Koga no Goshi
I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
They were death camps. Deserving has everything to do with it because punishment is viewed as actions taken for justice after a crime. Punishment is viewed as a penalty for wrongdoing.
It is not a more severe term than "concentration camps", because everyone knows what concentration camps means. Calling them anything other than that or death camps is an attempt to hide what they really are. An attempt to gloss over evil.
I never said the government hasn't done evil. But it's the exception to the rule.Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.
Immature?To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.
"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.
The Nazi government was headed by Hitler, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people. It is nearly alone among governments in history in that regard.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Punishment
Re: Jorg Haider is Dead
Yeah, you notice how you have to go down to the fourth definition to get that, and the first three are these:
Those are the definitions of punishment people think of.1. the act of punishing.
2. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Jorg Haider is Dead
It is still the definition, so he is literally correct...
Re: Jorg Haider is Dead
The whole use of the term punishment was meant to deceive and deflect knowledge of what the concentration camps really were. That's the problem with that phrase.
Haider tried to equate a term that is fundamentally understood to meant a penalty for wrongdoing with the Nazi death camps. With that he tried to distort the reality of the concentration camps.
Oh yes. This is not some case of competing national interests, of people and leaders at odds because they're serving their countries.Really?
Nazi Germany was evil. They were not serving their own interests, even in a wrong way. They were a tool of evil.
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Re : Jorg Haider is Dead
That doesn't make any sense. Its very obvious that the Jews were sent to the camps to punish them. Punishment can be delivered undeservedly.
Also, you should look up where the term "concentration camp" comes from if you are interested in the use of semantics to gloss over evil.
I could make a convincing argument to the contrary, but thats not the point.. a point you seem to be missing entirely.I never said the government hasn't done evil. But it's the exception to the rule.
Really?The Nazi government was headed by Hitler, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people. It is nearly alone among governments in history in that regard.
How many different ways could those blanks be filled?The _________ government was headed by _________, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 10-12-2008 at 06:03.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks