When choosing between evil and evil, you can always choose good(franco debate)

[InsaneApache]

So what's the choice then? Fascism or communism? Or Fascism or democracy? Communism or democracy?

I'm a bit rusty on the Spanish Civil War, I don't recall anyone fighting just for democracy in it. I thought it was a straight left/right wing ideology thingy.

I'm happy to be educated though.

[CountArach]

So what's the choice then? Fascism or communism? Or Fascism or democracy? Communism or democracy?

I'm a bit rusty on the Spanish Civil War, I don't recall anyone fighting just for democracy in it. I thought it was a straight left/right wing ideology thingy.

I'm happy to be educated though.

The Socialist/Communists/Anarchists were the Democratically elected Government and hence they could claim to be fighting for Democracy. In reality though they could largely be considered the Stalinist wing of Spanish politics. The Nationalist Right revolted against the Government not long after the elections and as such the war was fought. It took on a heavily ideological tone for that reason.

[InsaneApache]

So to be clear, it's a choice between an authoritarian one party state and a totalitarian one party state. Not much to shout about.

I say damn both their eyes. Socialism and fascism, two cheeks of the same arse.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I always thought that the Republicans were in fact fairly moderate and democratic, but were often misunderstood internationally as the far-left faction, and that was why many workers from the Clydeside and other areas of Scotland went to fight for them.

[LittleGrizzly]

I always thought that the Republicans were in fact fairly moderate and democratic, but were often misunderstood internationally as the far-left faction,

This is what i assumed, the left wingers simply got aid of russia and other kinds of material support in the same way america sometimes support rights wing goverments, i mean if you can get free help because you happen to share an ideaology why not ? it makes them no more lackey's than bolivia to venezula as one example, i think the facists just couldn't stomach the will of the people so tried to subvert the oppositions message

and that was why many workers from the Clydeside and other areas of Scotland went to fight for them.

I think some welsh did as well... from a manic street preachers song "So if I can shoot rabbits, Then I can shoot fascists" and very well said too!

[lars573]

I always thought that the Republicans were in fact fairly moderate and democratic, but were often misunderstood internationally as the far-left faction, and that was why many workers from the Clydeside and other areas of Scotland went to fight for them.

Wasn't quite that clean. The socialists were pro-democracy more or less. Problem is that they were in a coalition with the Spainish communists (the darkside of a PR system). Which really worked against them. The pro-church and pro-monarchy conservative factions really didn't trust the communists. And in the 1935 parlimentary elections there were "voting irregularities." The conservatives blamed them on the government. But really the blame could be put to the really fringe elements of both ruling parties. Which lead to the socialist/communist government becoming more authoritarian. Which led the army in Morroco to revolt. Which led to the civil war.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I would say that the Republicans were pretty left-wing, not moderate.

[Fragony]

Which led the army in Morroco to revolt. Which led to the civil war.

Well there is lot more going on there if you want to be very specific, but in general that sums it up.

[Guildenstern]

The leftist Popular Front won the election democratically, but several acts of violence were committed against the Church by left-wing supporters following the election. This increased the level of instability. That said, Franco revolted against the elected government, so his actions were totally anti-democratic and authoritarian.

[Louis VI the Fat]

So to be clear, it's a choice between an authoritarian one party state and a totalitarian one party state. Not much to shout about.

I say damn both their eyes. Socialism and fascism, two cheeks of the same arse.

Aye, one would say this would be the inevitable conclusion for those who look back on Europe's 20th century.

When choosing between evil and evil, you can always choose good. Spain didn't have to choose between fascism and communism. It's just that followers of either thought - and persist in thinking - this was the only choice, while laying the blame entirely at the other faction.

[InsaneApache]

Aye, one would say this would be the inevitable conclusion for those who look back on Europe's 20th century.

When choosing between evil and evil, you can always choose good. Spain didn't have to choose between fascism and communism. It's just that followers of either thought - and persist in thinking - this was the only choice, while laying the blame entirely at the other faction.

A bit like two cheeks slapping together to stifle debate?

[Husar]

I guess the problem is that noone dared open a third party, similar to the american two party system where noone dares voting for a third party because "they won't win anyway", so everyone goes with one of the available bad choices.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I guess the problem is that noone dared open a third party, similar to the american two party system where noone dares voting for a third party because "they won't win anyway", so everyone goes with one of the available bad choices.

That makes sense. If you're looking at two coalitions who do have a chance of winning, and the moderates losing massively, you're probably going to go for the one who you think will do the least harm.

[HoreTore]

So what's the choice then? Fascism or communism? Or Fascism or democracy? Communism or democracy?

I'm a bit rusty on the Spanish Civil War, I don't recall anyone fighting just for democracy in it. I thought it was a straight left/right wing ideology thingy.

I'm happy to be educated though.

My point was that the choice wasn't just between fascism and communism. People knew about democracy, they knew about freedom. They could've fought for it. Just like both Franco and the communists could have done. There was nothing forcing anyone to become murderers, they became that because they wanted it.

[Incongruous]

My point was that the choice wasn't just between fascism and communism. People knew about democracy, they knew about freedom. They could've fought for it. Just like both Franco and the communists could have done. There was nothing forcing anyone to become murderers, they became that because they wanted it.

No HoreTore, you selected a quote of mine which was talking most specifically about the Spanish peasants, no one else. Just becasue they new democracy was "invented" does in no way mean hey could have supported it. It was not he democrats holding the big guns and threatening them with death...

A bit like the commies in Russia.

[Samurai Waki]

Well, saying Franco was a Fascist is a little misconstrued. Yes, he was a bastard that intentionally and willingly fought and thereafter persecuted the Republicans (White Terror). However, he also probably saved the Country the headache of having to deal with the Germans, which Spain at that point could not have dealt with, so inevitably a Fascist was going to be in power, its the difference between Franco's "Fascist Light" and Nationalist Socialist. He also walked the tight rope pressure of both Nazi Germany and Italy from entering the war (Volunteering the Spanish Blue Company to fight for the Germans on the Eastern Front seemed a good assurance he wasn't working against them), but he didn't agree with the holocaust, and gave home to thousands of Jews fleeing from France (in secrecy of course) so his intentions weren't terrible, just poorly executed. And at the end of the Dictatorship, he did give the Country back to the King, who he knew was going to establish democratic power again. However, I in no way could ever condone his actions.