Socialism at Work In Venezuela

[LittleGrizzly]

I started looking around WSM just out of interest rather than looking for any kind of counter argument..... ran into the following in the section
How the WSM Is Different From Other Groups

Some put forward a reasonable analysis of capitalism, but then work to give capitalism a "human face". Some claim that they want to end capitalism. Their bottom line is, however, just capitalism with reforms. Democratic Socialists of America is a good example of this.

1. We believe that socialism will be a wageless, moneyless, free-access society.
2. None agree with this.

• Most support a market system. Some suggest that a non-capitalist market is possible. These suggestions show a lack of understanding of market economics. While non-capitalist market systems have existed, they are impractical in a modern world. If a "non-capitalist" market system was established it would eventually become a capitalist market system.

I think socialism has a fairly wide ranging meaning, i have described myself as a socialist on occassion but i did not mean state control of all enterprise by that, seen as communism seems to desribe a narrower definition perhaps it would be better to use this word for that range of views to avoid confusion.... though considering what your describing as socialism does that mean that venezula took state control of all businesses ?

[Crazed Rabbit]

I started looking around WSM just out of interest rather than looking for any kind of counter argument..... ran into the following in the section
How the WSM Is Different From Other Groups

Huh, I didn't really check it out.

I think socialism has a fairly wide ranging meaning, i have described myself as a socialist on occassion but i did not mean state control of all enterprise by that, seen as communism seems to desribe a narrower definition perhaps it would be better to use this word for that range of views to avoid confusion.... though considering what your describing as socialism does that mean that venezula took state control of all businesses ?

Wide meaning, eh? Then maybe my views aren't that laughable after all.

CR

[HoreTore]

Socialism isn't one thing, CR. Like christianity, it has branched out in a ton of ways.

So to save it, they'd basically give the company money in addition to running it differently?

For example.

My point is, when companies don't have to deal with the economic realities of a free market, their decisions don't make the most economical use of resources.

What? The thing is, they will have to deal with the economical realities of a free market. I'm a voter. I want my government to run it's institutions the best way possible, I do not want them wasting money. The party most capable of running said corporation will get my vote. Because of that, the government will do their very best to ensure that the company is as efficient, well run and profitable as possible. If not, they will lose it. Just like a private owner will.

[TB666]

But isn’t it true that cities like Malmo already have a higher population of Muslims than Swedes? Sounds like a growing occurrence.

As a Malmö-native(born and raised and still live here being half-danish and half-swede) I will say that it is clearly false.
As Ironside already pointed out, the majority is still swedish people.
Only thing I can see such a rumour to be created and spun out of control is that in one of the schools in Malmö the majority of the students are immigrants.
This is the famous Rosengård's school.
Rosengård is the immigrant ghetto created by the politicans that couldn't see beyond their nose.
Only immigrants live there except for the few swedes who couldn't get an place to live anywhere else.
And if you go public school you don't pick which school you go to, you go the closest school.
So naturally all the immigrants will end up in one school.

This naturally causes problems and no one in Malmö casts this problem a blind eye.
We all know about it and want something to be done about it, swedish and immigrants alike.
But the politicans ignore it, atleast those in Stockholm. Our local politicans and "state council"(because lack of a better word to describe it) has sent countless letters to Stockholm asking them to stop sending immigrants to Malmö. It gets ignored.

But not all immigrants are muslims as Ironside pointed out.
Just last year, they pointed out on the radio that the largest immigrant group was actually danish people.
It's cheaper to live in Sweden then in Denmark and thanks to the bridge that connects Sweden and Denmark it is very easy to move over now so right now there is a problem with apartments since danish people are buying up all the apartments and are willing to pay alot more then Swedish people(again, swedish apartments are far big, nicer and cheaper then the danish counterparts).

[Jolt]

I typed 'socialism' into Google and Wikipedia agrees with me, as does the first few dictionary sites I found, including the Encyclopedia Britannica , and the first socialism website that showed up, and the first economics website that showed up, and the world socialism movement seems to agree more with me as well.

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other.

Curiously though, most sites I saw are closely conotated with Marxist Socialism, rather than Social Democratism, which is what is done in Europe. And indeed the utopical Socialism is to end the differences of wealth (Surely you too would see it as a nice ideal, no?), the problem is that that is all theory, and while it would be good that Socialism worked the way it is written in the WSM sites, the problem is that it doesn't, and therefore applicable Socialism works nowhere near what the First Economics Website claims to be Socialism, (It is ridiculous to see Lenin and Stalin being called Socialists, in modern standards.) and indeed the sole example of "Socialism" of that economics site is...The Soviet Union!!??? It is no wonder that you think Socialism is Communism if you read those stupid definitions of what Socialism is. Continuing on the point I left, the definitions that seem to agree with you are either the definitions of early Socialism (e.g. Marxist Socialism, which is a moderate form of Marxism-Leninism/Communism), or definitions which are wrong.

In a nutshell, here's what modern Socialism promotes (So you have a more informed view of what Socialism is):

- A mixed economy consisting mainly of private enterprise, but with government owned or subsidized programs of education, healthcare, child care and related services for all citizens.
- Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers, consumers and fair competition.
- Advocacy of fair trade over free trade.
- An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by other socialist groups), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
- Moderate to high levels of taxation (through a value-added and/or progressive taxation system) to fund government expenditure.

Now let's not hope you come again saying Socialists want to nationalize and control everything in their path.
EDIT: I'm sure HoreTore and other Europeans can quickly come to corroborate that this is the Socialism that is practiced in Europe.

I see. Here in the US, we have laws against age discrimination. I'm not sure how effective they are.

My point being that the efficiency of those laws is at the very best, laughable. For the most obvious of reasons.

[Tribesman]

tribesy; have fun on your trip to irrelevenceville.

So you can't read then as well as being unable to understand
Oh looky , from your posted article......

It will cost at least $32 billion to build another three upgrading units and take some five years,

hmmmm interesting eh ....posted by me .......what is the date that venezuela has put on new production ? you know new production as in new expanded production after a big outlay lots of development and lots and lots and lots of foriegn investment ? .. errrrrr you didn't answer that did you Rabbit ...and again..... after all its not like the plans for the development of the belt have been discussed here about half a dozen times already , or the new contracts , or the new tanker fleet , terminals and pipelines .

But OK I know you can't grasp it , but hey have an easy one , maybe you can do some simple sums .....really simple sums .
If a project is slated to be developed in 1012 and it is now 2008 how many more years is it expected to take ? (have a clue as even something that simple might be beyond your ability , the answer is in the post you made)
But there is something you are completely missing as is the writer of that article , as of course that plan does not envisage pumping more oil from the existing fields , they still want to further reduce that output to both keep the reserves and fiddle the market along with the cartel to ensure maximum revenue , this is to open new reserves and new markets....a bit like their other plan for new sources and new markets that the US blocked by threatening the economies of other countries that were part of the deal , but in this case the belt project involves countries that the US cannot threaten much ....especially as their ideology has given them a screwed economy and crazy global commitments that they cannot come through on yet can't get out of .

So to sum up in simple terms that you may be able to just about grab the basics of ...they have cut production because they cut production , they are further cutting production because they are further cutting production . They are not going for the 3 upgrades on the existing production because they are opening up an entirely new development for a new market that is putting up the cash while on their existing facilities they will still seek a further reduction in output(if the rest of Opec also agree of course ...which is very likely)

[Koga No Goshi]

Socialism isn't one thing, CR. Like christianity, it has branched out in a ton of ways.

Yup. I could look up textbook "conservativism" and I would most likely NOT read a description of how neocon Republicans have acted in the last 8 years. Yet plenty of people who vote Republican call themselves conservatives.

This seems like a semantic argument more than a substantive one that CR is making.

[Banquo's Ghost]

...maybe you can do some simple sums .....really simple sums .
If a project is slated to be developed in 1012 and it is now 2008 how many more years is it expected to take ?

Hmm. My abacus says that it's been finished for nearly a thousand years or its an Irish government project that's "slipped".

Moral: If you're going to be beastly about people's intelligence, try not to post when drunk.

[Viking]

If a project is slated to be developed in 1012 and it is now 2008 how many more years is it expected to take ? (have a clue as even something that simple might be beyond your ability , the answer is in the post you made

Hmm. My abacus says that it's been finished for nearly a thousand years or its an Irish government project that's "slipped".

Moral: If you're going to be beastly about people's intelligence, try not to post when drunk.

I'm pretty certain that there's a reference to the theory of relativity and time dilation lurking in there somewhere.

[yesdachi]

Well after reading the rest of this thread I am convinced that Sweden has been taken over by foreigners and for some nefarious reason they are attempting to trick the rest of the world into thinking that the native Swedes are still in control. I don’t have proof but I’ve got my eye on you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ice]

Hmm. My abacus says that it's been finished for nearly a thousand years or its an Irish government project that's "slipped".

Moral: If you're going to be beastly about people's intelligence, try not to post when drunk.

Would you mind if sigged (probably not a word) the moral part? It's nothing personal against Tribesman, I just find that particular line funny.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Would you mind if sigged (probably not a word) the moral part? It's nothing personal against Tribesman, I just find that particular line funny.

You are welcome. Tribesman likes my texts for his signature too.