No better than them

[Strike For The South]

If you were murdered for being from that country, no matter how evil its regime, then of course I would still feel sorry for you. Why wouldn't I, you're still a human being, you were just born into a bad state.

Was the Expulsion a bad thing? Yes of course it was but to say the Germans should've excepted to be treated any different is simply revisionism.

PJ you can defend them all you want but the fact is you got what you deserved, 1 American life would've been to much in an invasion of Japan. We had the weapons and we used them. Good I say. I really am sick of how some people feel the need to bring the Allies down. The Japaneese and Germans exterminated people they thought were "less" and now you want me to feel bad for you? You started the most destructive war in history and you want me to say "its cool man we did some bad things to" No we should've run the NAZIs into the ground and then taken the fight to the Reds just like Patton wanted.

[PanzerJaeger]

PJ you can defend them all you want but the fact is you got what you deserved,

I completely agree. Any nation that starts a war that it cannot win deserves what it gets. The Germans had the ability to win, and let political mismanagement hold them back - much like the US in Vietnam.

I'm just tired of hearing about Allied moral superiority, which was thoroughly pissed away in the ruins of Dresden and Nagasaki.

1 American life would've been to much in an invasion of Japan.We had the weapons and we used them. Good I say.

You wouldn't be defending murder, would you? And can we please get over the notion that the atom bombs were used for any other reason than to influence the soviets?

I really am sick of how some people feel the need to bring the Allies down.

I'm just bringing them down to reality.

The Japaneese and Germans exterminated people they thought were "less" and now you want me to feel bad for you?

Nope. I want you to realize that the Allies exterminated people for show, after they had already been defeated. How is that any better?

And since we're coming to terms with reality, can we please dispense with the notion that the Holocaust was anything other than a sad footnote of WW2? The vast majority of Germans and Allies did not know of the extent of the Holocaust, and were certainly not fighting for reasons having anything to do with it. Only after the war did knowledge of it reach the general populaces of these nations, yet somehow many believe that WW2 was a grand effort to save the Jews from extermination.

You started the most destructive war in history and you want me to say "its cool man we did some bad things to" No we should've run the NAZIs into the ground and then taken the fight to the Reds just like Patton wanted.

Aside from Papa Joe himself, no one killed more communists than the German Army.

[Koga No Goshi]

I completely agree. Any nation that starts a war that it cannot win deserves what it gets. I'm just tired of hearing about Allied moral superiority, which was thoroughly pissed away in the ruins of Dresden and Nagasaki.

To be honest I don't recall very many people arguing that the Allies had overwhelming moral superiority. You're flipping the argument around a bit, you and Fragony and a few others have been tiptoing around making the assertion that what the Germans did in WWII wasn't really so bad and even if it was, it wasn't their fault, but everyone else's because of the poor diplomacy that ended (oops edit: WWI) and social movements in Europe.

You wouldn't be defending murder, would you? And can we please get over the notion that the atom bombs were used for any other reason than to influence the soviets?

You'll get no argument from me that the use of the nukes was one of the single most horrific acts in human history. And the emotional obtuseness you get from Americans when you challenge the "it was necessary, IT WAS NECESSARY!" argument (which isn't true) makes it rather pointless to try to argue with them about it most of the time. The use of the nukes had more to do with showcasing our new weapon to Russia than moving an already defeated Japan to surrender (Japan had already sent out peace feelers and offered conditional surrenders through intermediaries), though it did accomplish both goals.

Nope. I want you to realize that the Allies exterminated people for show, after they had already been defeated. How is that any better?

The difference that you keep eluding, Panzer, is that after the nukes were dropped, the U.S. didn't set up factories for the mass extermination of the Japanese people. That is not equal to saying the Allies were unquestionably moral in everything that they did. But it is an important difference and very much evidence against a claim that Nazi Germany "was no worse than the Allies, but lost the war, so history villified their actions more."

And since we're coming to terms with reality, can we please dispense with the notion that the Holocaust was anything other than a sad footnote of WW2? The vast majority of Germans and Allies did not know of the extent of the Holocaust, and were certainly not fighting for reasons having anything to do with it. Only after the war did knowledge of it reach the general populaces of these nations, yet somehow many believe that WW2 was a grand effort to save the Jews from extermination.

What you say is true, but I think what people take exception to is your constant efforts to minimize the holocaust, such as calling it "no more than a footnote." It is true that anti-Semitism was rather rife even amongst the Allies, many of whom refused Jewish refugees throughout the war. But I think you are not doing the cause of "German pride", which you seem to espouse, any favors by going around and trying to yammer at people to stop thinking the holocaust was such a big deal.

[PanzerJaeger]

What you say is true, but I think what people take exception to is your constant efforts to minimize the holocaust, such as calling it "no more than a footnote." It is true that anti-Semitism was rather rife even amongst the Allies, many of whom refused Jewish refugees throughout the war. But I think you are not doing the cause of "German pride", which you seem to espouse, any favors by going around and trying to yammer at people to stop thinking the holocaust was such a big deal.

That is not my intention at all. I only seek historical reality.

Panzer, here's a hypothetical case for you:

Leroy Williams rapes and murders white women for several years. Then the Tennesee police catches him. They fry his arse on the chair.
Does this make the US goverment his moral equal? Are the people of Tennessee now no better than this black serial killer?
I mean, they are murderers too by putting him on the chair. And they have a history of racism too, just like our black serial killer.

Or is there a difference?

That would depend on your stance on the death penalty. I think that any comparison between your hypothetical case and WW2 is more than just a stretch.

Here's a hypothetical for you:

Lets say Hans kills a man because he believes said man is truly evil, and is part of a conspiracy to take advantage of his people. Now lets say John kills a man to show off his cool new gun to his peers.

Which act is worse?

Glad you take pride in Russian deaths. Communists aren't human to you, are they?

I don't enjoy communists, no.

If you care to research it, you can find dozens of incidents over the course of the war where the US or the British or one of our Allies behaved cruelly or with malice aforethought engaged in some action that was immoral even by the flimsy morality of war. Then set yourself a harder challenge and find me a week -- any week -- where the Nazis weren't.

I am not the one insistent on the moral superiority of one side or the other.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but your entire argument seems to rest on the notion: "We did terrible things, but they did it first... "

That just isn't a strong argument, imho. It would certainly not hold up in court.

That begs the question, if the germans weren't all nazis, why would you assume that all those russians were communists?

I did not assume that all Russians were communists. I simply stated that the German military had killed lots of communists, which is fact.

[Strike For The South]

Lets say Hans kills a man because he believes said man is truly evil, and is part of a conspiracy to take advantage of his people. Now lets say John kills a man to show off his cool new gun to his peers.

Who is worse?

t.

Ignorantia juris non excusat. By your logic I should start killing brown people because they are starting to upset our demographic. You are getting very Buhcahenesque in your reasons why The USA dropped the bomb.

[PanzerJaeger]

Ignorantia juris non excusat. By your logic I should start killing brown people because they are starting to upset our demographic. You are getting very Buhcahenesque in your reasons why The USA dropped the bomb.

Nope, I am not justifying the idiocy of anti-Semitism. I am only pointing out that it existed, and was very real to these people. The "fact" that European Jewry was a subversive force within German society was taken for granted.

The allies, on the other hand, had no inaccurate predispositions about the Axis populace. They simply killed for fun, terror, body counts, gold teeth, revenge, and to show off.

[Strike For The South]

Nope, I am not justifying the idiocy of anti-Semitism. I am only pointing out that it existed, and was very real to these people. The "fact" that European Jewry was a subversive force within German society was taken for granted.

The allies, on the other hand, had no inaccurate predispositions about the Axis populace. They simply killed for fun, terror, body counts, gold teeth, revenge, and to show off.

You forgot lugers we killed for them to. Now you're just being obtuse. The Latin threat is very real to some people to. That doesnt give people a blank check on Mexicans.

[KarlXII]

Nope, I am not justifying the idiocy of anti-Semitism. I am only pointing out that it existed, and was very real to these people. The "fact" that European Jewry was a subversive force within German society was taken for granted.

And? Does it make it any more right?

The allies, on the other hand, had no inaccurate predispositions about the Axis populace. They simply killed for fun, terror, body counts, gold teeth, revenge, and to show off.

Are you aware of the numerous occasions the Germans intentionally bombed civilian cities? Or are you just being obtuse?

From Wikipedia, German War Crimes other than the Holocaust and the concentration camps.

Invasion of Poland, in the period of 1st September- 25th October 1939 German Wehrmacht during its military actions engaged in executions of Polish POWs, bombed hospitals, murdered civilians, shot refugees, executed wounded soldiers. The cautious estimates give a number of at least 16,000 murdered victims [1]
Pacification Operations in German occupied Poland, during the occupation of Poland by German Reich, Wehrmacht forces took part in several pacification actions in rural areas, that resulted in murder of at least 20,000 Polish villagers
Le Paradis massacre, May 1940, British soldiers of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, captured by the SS and subsequently murdered. Fritz Knoechlein tried, found guilty and hanged.
Wormhoudt massacre, May 1940, British and French soldiers captured by the SS and subsequently murdered. No one found guilty of the crime.
Vinkt Massacre
d'Ardenne Massacres, June 1944 Canadian soldiers captured by the SS and Murdered by 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend. SS General Kurt Meyer (Panzermeyer) sentenced to be shot 1946; sentence commuted; released 1954
Malmedy massacre, December 1944, United States POWs captured by Kampfgruppe Peiper were murdered outside of Malmedy, Belgium.
Gardelegen (war crime)
Marzabotto massacre
Sant'Anna di Stazzema
Cefalonia Massacre
Oradour-sur-Glane
The annihilation of the Czech city of Lidice
Massacre of Kalavryta
The treatment of Soviet POWs throughout the war, who were not given the protections and guarantees of the Geneva Convention
Unrestricted submarine warfare against merchant shipping.
The intentional destruction of major medieval churches of Novgorod, of monasteries in the Moscow region (e.g., of New Jerusalem Monastery) and of the imperial palaces around St. Petersburg (many of them were left by the post-war authorities in ruins or simply demolished).
The campaign of extermination of Slavic population in the occupied territories. Several thousand villages were burned with their entire population (e.g., Khatyn massacre in Belarus). Every fourth inhabitant of Belarus did not survive the German occupation.

[Sarmatian]

I don't enjoy communists, no.

Why? With a little salt and vinegar they're great, although I do prefer French and Italian cuisine myself.

I did not assume that all Russians were communists. I simply stated that the German military had killed lots of communists, which is fact.

And indirectly created much more then they have killed. And no need to be modest, German military during ww2 killed lots of everything. Communists, Jews, untermensch, civilians... Not overly picky. And I'm really sorry we fought back. In the next war, I'll do my best to understand than I may not kill a member of a proud, superior and blond Germanic race and instead devote my life to serve it, as a lowly member of good-for-nothing slave race. Anyway, you're doing good. Don't let anyone put a shadow of doubt on a proud Nazi army, fighting for defense of Germany in Paris, London, Prague, Warsaw, Moscow, Kiev, Belgrade, Sofia, Buchurest, Athens, Belgrade, Amsterdam, Brussels, Bratislava, Copenhagen and many other places in an effort to make the world a better and blonder place...

[KarlXII]

And I'm really sorry we fought back. In the next war, I'll do my best to understand than I may not kill a member of a proud, superior and blond Germanic race and instead devote my life to serve it, as a lowly member of good-for-nothing slave race.

As you should

[Louis VI the Fat]

Panzer, here's a hypothetical case for you:

Leroy Williams rapes and murders white women for several years. Then the Tennesee police catches him. They fry his arse on the chair.
Does this make the US goverment his moral equal? Are the people of Tennessee now no better than this black serial killer?
I mean, they are murderers too by putting him on the chair. And they have a history of racism too, just like our black serial killer.

Or is there a difference?

[KarlXII]

Aside from Papa Joe himself, no one killed more communists than the German Army.

Glad you take pride in Russian deaths. Communists aren't human to you, are they? Sad to see people like you have the ability to vote in our society.

[Husar]

That begs the question, if the germans weren't all nazis, why would you assume that all those russians were communists?

[KarlXII]

That begs the question, if the germans weren't all nazis, why would you assume that all those russians were communists?

Russians aren't human, don't you get it by now?