Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[TancredTheNorman]

To no helmet have you ever played a no phalanx or very poort phalanx faction? When you face that ai elite phalanx spam at the end of a typical Romani or even Barbarian Campaign you extend beyond your barbarian goals you will learn to respect and love the elite Phalanx.

[NoHelmet]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

[Burebista]

I could never understand the ideea behind elite phalanxes. They are rly not worth the effort for their purpose , only used for holding the line. they may have tehsecondary attack , yes , but they will tipically be assigned center , so they wont get to use their sec attack , or a flank , where they are too slow and do less than a normal flanker.

U want to see elites? Buy elephants.

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

And yet if you are fighting battles without much heavy cavalry or high class AP infantry, those elite phalangites are a pain in the rear. For example in my Hai campaign I am not spamming horse archers and I don't really use AP infantry all that much so I always lose a lot when fighting them if my general is off somewhere else on the battlefield.

[TancredTheNorman]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

I agree you can't love them, but I tend to play largely without cavalry, and what little cavalry I have has to protect against the couple horses the ai brings (it feels like the Illiad because it is often famaily member vs family member). I tend to usually defeat a stack of ai spam, my poor Barbarian Infantry never wins or wins with only a couple survivors, Romans fare much better but still suffer unusually high casualties.

My point in the end is not all units are designed to be used by us, I think elite Phalanxes are designed for the ai in general, and Ptolemaioi and Selucid factions in particular in order to encourage us to prevent either from reaching their potential of owning most of the map while you become the only other significant power. My foreign policy in my most recent campaign (I am determined that this time I won't abandon the Romani like I usually do) is to prevent the rise of the House of Ptolemy, and help cause the fall of Selucid Empire.

[Burebista]

I agree you can't love them, but I tend to play largely without cavalry, and what little cavalry I have has to protect against the couple horses the ai brings (it feels like the Illiad because it is often famaily member vs family member). I tend to usually defeat a stack of ai spam, my poor Barbarian Infantry never wins or wins with only a couple survivors, Romans fare much better but still suffer unusually high casualties.

My point in the end is not all units are designed to be used by us, I think elite Phalanxes are designed for the ai in general, and Ptolemaioi and Selucid factions in particular in order to encourage us to prevent either from reaching their potential of owning most of the map while you become the only other significant power. My foreign policy in my most recent campaign (I am determined that this time I won't abandon the Romani like I usually do) is to prevent the rise of the House of Ptolemy, and help cause the fall of Selucid Empire.

i think you are using your armies wrongly. Phalanxes beat anything , it is true , but only from the front. There is the option of disproportionate power on one flank , the tactic of Epaminondas , which should solve most problems . I use it frequently and does wonders. Basically your forces should have a thin center line that hold the line in guard mode while the all-powerful flank (aprox 40-50% of ur forces) creates havoc on one side and starts a domino effect

Remember: Phalanxes can't manoever very well , they cant adjust to your army very fast so flanking them is not very hard. Also , any scary units do wonders as Pantodapoi Phalangitai have only 8 morale

[ChingizLink]

Yeah, that's why they are so scary. It seems that Penisses were were very terrible those ages.

This just reminded me of the scene in Rome on HBO, when Lucius Vorenus comes home to his wife for the first time in a 8-10 years, and he empties his misc keepsakes and money out, and right there is a mummified "phallus" of a Sueve (I think) he killed. I loved the way he explains to his wife, as if she's gonna be like "Oh, so they're especially large, strong men and fearsome warriors? Oh, never mind what I said about throwing the mummified penis out. Let's put it on the mantle..."

[ChingizLink]

Actually, i usually play with "no phalanx or very poor phalanx" faction. I currently face Ptolemaioi with Pahlava. I respect them by not engaging them. Kill the general first, then one by one, they fall. Why would i engage their line if i can break it up? Divide the line and conquer it. Elite phalanx is like a high class "escort", it does the job very good, but you cannot love it.

I totally agree with the above of course, but lately, I've been having pushing my luck when fighting big Successor style armies. I always used the Pahlava armored HAs/Zradha shivatir (can't beat them for the $; I recently started using the Dehbeds more, but I have trouble remembering they're not as tough or able to stick/follow up a charge like the Zradhas) as my core troops, along with an azad or grivpanvar, usually a dahae noble, and then 3-6 HAs. I always try to set up the general and/or the enemy's best cavalry and missile troops first, wear down the phalanxes and elite heavy infantry with HAs and Zradhas/Dahae/etc, and charge the big units once they're reduced by a third or so. But I really love seeing fresh, full strength heavy phalanx units with their guard down (usually walking toward my general like frankenstein) and charging their rear (wow, that came out different than I anticipated) with Zradhas, Dahae or...tee hee hee hee...Grivpanvars.

It's kinda like playing chicken once the charge dies down. Like "Okay, so I'm losing a guy every 5-10 seconds...he's losing em every 2 seconds...okay, so my guy's not...oh OH OH OH OH OKAY OKAY OKAY MOVE MOVE!!!!"

And then there are those times when...you're micromanaging, totally space out about that suicide mission you sent them on until you hear their horn, pause the game, go "RUH-ROH..." like Scooby Doo, then see your Dahae Riders -- those stupid, brave BEAUTIFUL BASTARDS -- in a full charge, like 3 feet from a perfectly formed phalanx unit...

[TancredTheNorman]

i think you are using your armies wrongly. Phalanxes beat anything , it is true , but only from the front. There is the option of disproportionate power on one flank , the tactic of Epaminondas , which should solve most problems . I use it frequently and does wonders. Basically your forces should have a thin center line that hold the line in guard mode while the all-powerful flank (aprox 40-50% of ur forces) creates havoc on one side and starts a domino effect

Remember: Phalanxes can't manoever very well , they cant adjust to your army very fast so flanking them is not very hard. Also , any scary units do wonders as Pantodapoi Phalangitai have only 8 morale

Pantodapoi was not the topic, at the end of all of my campaigns I am facing the royal guard of Phalangites, we are discussing the elites who kill Marian Cohortes without using Phalanxes, and it's not a myth. I have lost Suldoros, Hastati, Triarii, Principes, Gaeros, Hoplitae, and even some usually reliable Phalanx Busters like Hillmen charging those from the back while they fight Lugoe with their pikes. If I don't have enough cavalry to counter their family members on top of needing to deal with their secondary attack I have to deal with cavalry charges to the back of my own flankers.

The best aspect is once the battle is over with a heroic victory it being the ai it just drops in an identical army. Pantadopoi of any type is only some form of line holder, the ai actually respects that and never brings more then 2-4 of those.

I'm not complaining I am just pointing out that to the ai Elit Phalanxes are their lifeblood, Phalanx Spam is just annoying because you want to fight a real enemy not rout everything, Elite Phalanx Spam is a pain unless you have a cavalry heavy army.

Even with cavalry heavy armies I find elite Phalangites fare much better against me then anything else, the ultimate proof is the casualty list, I fought Marian Reform Infantry with cavalry (Brihentin) with 10 losses to their 600 (small unit size), Phalangite Elites of the east took out 35 to the same 600 casualties, numbers do speak for themselves, their price tag is annoying for us which is why the ai gets finnancial assistance via the script.

[Burebista]

Pantodapoi was not the topic, at the end of all of my campaigns I am facing the royal guard of Phalangites, we are discussing the elites who kill Marian Cohortes without using Phalanxes, and it's not a myth. I have lost Suldoros, Hastati, Triarii, Principes, Gaeros, Hoplitae, and even some usually reliable Phalanx Busters like Hillmen charging those from the back while they fight Lugoe with their pikes. If I don't have enough cavalry to counter their family members on top of needing to deal with their secondary attack I have to deal with cavalry charges to the back of my own flankers.

The best aspect is once the battle is over with a heroic victory it being the ai it just drops in an identical army. Pantadopoi of any type is only some form of line holder, the ai actually respects that and never brings more then 2-4 of those.

I'm not complaining I am just pointing out that to the ai Elit Phalanxes are their lifeblood, Phalanx Spam is just annoying because you want to fight a real enemy not rout everything, Elite Phalanx Spam is a pain unless you have a cavalry heavy army.

Even with cavalry heavy armies I find elite Phalangites fare much better against me then anything else, the ultimate proof is the casualty list, I fought Marian Reform Infantry with cavalry (Brihentin) with 10 losses to their 600 (small unit size), Phalangite Elites of the east took out 35 to the same 600 casualties, numbers do speak for themselves, their price tag is annoying for us which is why the ai gets finnancial assistance via the script.

And yet the player is usually the one that fields a full elite phalanx army:))

[Olaf The Great]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

[lonewolf209]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

I have to agree. In my last carthage campain i bought a few to guard my flanks just to waist the copious amounts of money i had. i was completely suprised by them. spears, axes, good armor and decent shield, they are totally worth the price

[seienchin]

Unlike the sacred band, which is useless for their price

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I really shouldn't be suprised about this, as they are Elites....but the Liby-Pheonician elites with the axes are INSANELY good, I haven't actually tried the sacred band but I don't know if they're secondary is AP or as lethal as the axe, Throw these guys on walls and they will just win, use them against practically any unit and you will win even when outnumbered. Though they -are- elites, but I would have just assumed that they were just overpriced guys that would get chopped up just the same as everyone else, but they are definitely worth their price.

I agree as well. In a Roman campaign I played a long while ago, I got my first Polybian legions and decided to invade Africa with them. I met a smallish Carthaginian army with my brand new army of 4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 2 Triarii, 2 Equites, and 4 Velites. It was a bridge battle and the AI stationed one unit of Elite Liby-Phonecians on the opposite side while the rest of his army stood behind. Since I had no long range ranged units I figured I would just bowl them over with my masses of infantry...

Wrong. I lost all 8 Principes and Hastati before my Triarii finally killed the last one and the rest of the Carthaginian army stormed the bridge causing the rest of my army to rout. Only my cavalry got away. It was the most resounding defeat I'd ever had and it came more or less solely at the hands of these guys. They racked up close to 700 kills!

[Burebista]

I'll throw you a curve ball..

One of the best units cost effective in the whole game is.....SOTAROAS. 411 Mnai. For that you get much more than expected.Good archer mass , good sec attack & very hardy.

I am surprised just how good they are for kiting.

[NoHelmet]

I'll throw you a curve ball..

One of the best units cost effective in the whole game is.....SOTAROAS. 411 Mnai. For that you get much more than expected.Good archer mass , good sec attack & very hardy.

I am surprised just how good they are for kiting.

Better yet:


Much better than sotaroas and parthian archer spearmen. Bigger unit, more ammo and longer range. Unexpected kick-asses.

[Burebista]

Better yet:


Much better than sotaroas and parthian archer spearmen. Bigger unit, more ammo and longer range. Unexpected kick-asses.

Yes , but at double the cost. At that price i can't afford cannon fodder. Sotaroas are in a special category of "i dont care if i lose them , i can spam milions " cathegory.

[Ca Putt]

plus they can be recruited in northern europe thus will face a lot of unarmored troops, in my sweboz campaigns they were often a far to large portion of my army ;) yet imho celtic slingers are better as they have more range and can also be used against romans, and elites.

[Olaf The Great]

The idea is that by now we know that the eastern archer spearmen are really good for their cost, but we all still have prejudice against the western archers, and while they suck in comparison to easterners they are even cheaper and well, do you really need overpowered bows in the west when you're facing mostly naked celts? It's really the fire arrows and spears that do the damage.

[Burebista]

The idea is that by now we know that the eastern archer spearmen are really good for their cost, but we all still have prejudice against the western archers, and while they suck in comparison to easterners they are even cheaper and well, do you really need overpowered bows in the west when you're facing mostly naked celts? It's really the fire arrows and spears that do the damage.

I think you are missing the whole value of the unit.

Imagine this scenario..ur enemy has mostly infantry and a few medium/light horse. if they charge you with the horse you got the spear. And if they chase you with infantry you are kiting or shooting in the back a unit that is probably 3-4 times more expensive than your own, thus not doing the enemy's purpose (they should be considered semi-skirmishers with lots of ammo). This is mostly usefull in Multiplay where every 100 mnai counts , as in Single player the AI does indeed have imense resources.
Unit description "They are not really meant to defeat an enemy force, or even truly damage one, so much as they are meant to irritate and draw attention away from a main force, so it can position itself for flanking. As such, they are good runners, who fire a few volleys as a distraction, and then withdraw to a safe position to hide. If caught in a melee, they would be slaughtered for sure."

[seienchin]

You probably forget that despite their spears sotaroas get butcherd in close combat against cavallery and their bows are next to useless, because of their small unit size. Also fire arrows are good, but most other barbarian armies you face have great morale so it might be usefull in some cases, but against a 7star sweboz general its useless.
I prefer to use every men I can get plus some cavallery to swarm my enemies. That tactic never failed me^^.

[antisocialmunky]

Sotaroas kill cav for cost though. That is all that matters. Besides you can rush in your wall of AP after the archers stop the cav dead.

[Burebista]

Sotaroas kill cav for cost though. That is all that matters. Besides you can rush in your wall of AP after the archers stop the cav dead.

yep , they cost 411 but they keep busy a cav unit of maybe 3000 or a infantry unit of 1500sh

[seienchin]

So yeah they are usefull in multiplayer, but they are useless in a campain game. We should make a difference there. ;)
And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.

[Ca Putt]

mostly useless in campaign because they share their AOR with Celtic slingers, their germanic brothers(with almost identical stats) have a much more interesting AoR as they are the only "long" ranged unit the Sweboz can recruit early on and thus is very usefull in sieges and battles outside the forest in general.
crappy maybe but well even a crappy archer is usefull when fighting barechested guys ;)
and with their spears they are just strong enough to join the final rumble with all other troops depleted and exhausted. especially as they'll probably have a lot o chevrons

[Burebista]

And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.

True , but only half. They are useful because they are "very hardy" and have a spear with decent lethality compared to rest of archers with 0.04 .

[athanaric]

So yeah they are usefull in multiplayer, but they are useless in a campain game. We should make a difference there. ;)

Not true. I use them in campaign, and they are quite useful... if you know how to use them. Plus the Casse version looks very neat.

And their usefullness in multiplayer is not because of their ability, but just because they are the cheapest unit in the game.

Not true. Accensi are cheaper.

[Olaf The Great]

A unit doesn't have to be good to be suprisingly good. Sotaroas are really quite horrible, but they're SUPRISINGLY good.

[Burebista]

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

[Arjos]

Here's another. Iberi curisi .

Can anyone guess why i think this unit is sometimes extremely good?

Hiding? ^^

And for good unit I'll say the Appea Gaedotos (phalanx with guard on and "hellraiser" with its axe :p)