What now?

[QuintusSertorius]

Actually, I would never disband any elephants - sure they were expensive and contributed to my lack of treasury, but they also kept me going as they won me countless victories as Epeiros and made my exhausted and decimated army still a force to be reckoned with (eliminating Makedon and the KH within 5 years of game time). Ships, sure - there's no need to keep them around. But elite units (as well as cavalry) are worth so much more than levies and if you use them well they win you wars, not just battles.

Long as you've got a general with a doctor-type ancillary, losses don't tend to be that bad unless you've misjudged things badly. I've never found elites generally, nor elephants specifically are worth the money. Cheapo-basic units (who courtesy of type II or type IV governments start with a chevron) with upgraded weapons and armour, handled appropriately in battle do the job. And are easily replaced if losses are bad.

I use Epeiros as a migrated faction (Pergamon in one game, Massilia in the other) where I can't get type I governments anywhere (being in Asia Minor/Thrace or Gaul) and I can't say I've ever felt a great loss not having any of their elites. Though I don't play anywhere near as quickly as you do, and I never aim to wipe any faction out.

[panten]

Long as you've got a general with a doctor-type ancillary, losses don't tend to be that bad unless you've misjudged things badly. I've never found elites generally, nor elephants specifically are worth the money. Cheapo-basic units (who courtesy of type II or type IV governments start with a chevron) with upgraded weapons and armour, handled appropriately in battle do the job. And are easily replaced if losses are bad.

I use Epeiros as a migrated faction (Pergamon in one game, Massilia in the other) where I can't get type I governments anywhere (being in Asia Minor/Thrace or Gaul) and I can't say I've ever felt a great loss not having any of their elites. Though I don't play anywhere near as quickly as you do, and I never aim to wipe any faction out.

Fair enough, it definitely works without elites or not wiping anybody out. I usually use basic armies myself, and considering the threat level also leave factions usually alive. Unfortunately, few of my generals have/get the doctor trait so I have sometimes unexpected heavy losses - especially in the beginning.
Since you mentioned Epeiros too: I started that game for fun, nothing serious (I'm too occupied with other stuff to take a slow approach, sadly), I took Pyrrhos and conquered Pella, then went south to solidify rule and keep the Macedonians in check. Menawhile, I lost Taras - thought I had enough to beat the army besieging the city, but was wrong - so I was in heavy debt and Macedon still had a large army I needed to eliminate, so i made the mistake to walk by Athens. Athenians didn't like it so I had to fight off several armies and was basically forced to take the city - then went on to defeat the Macedonians in an epic battle near Korinthos - and apparently killed off their remaining family members and thus wiping them out rather unplanned. Then went off to Sparta so I could claim rule over Greece.. While my "normal" troops were really beaten already, my elephants remained full strength (until some got killed by my own skirmishers trying "harass" a fleeing enemy - but they were "awared" with the honor of assaulting a city later - sadly, 30 of them survived) and were the source of every victory I had. (they and the Illyrian cavalry - they are awesome, but were down to 10% of their strength by that point). Currently they are fighting in Italy and already played a major part in a crazy battle with loads of trees and a full stack of heavily armored Romans.

Now while there are campaigns were I don't really use elites, I found this to be a lot of fun and they were definitely worth more than their money. Don't get me wrong; I agree on your view, but elites can make a game interesting as well, especially if you have a small army and REALLY need to rely on these troops to win the battle - this gives me a new challenge (I mean beating the AI is only one on occassion) and keeps the game fun and a nice variation from all the basic army fighting I have done (In fact, these were only the second unit of elephants I have ever commanded - which makes me love the little buggers even more ;) )

[QuintusSertorius]

Fair enough, it definitely works without elites or not wiping anybody out. I usually use basic armies myself, and considering the threat level also leave factions usually alive. Unfortunately, few of my generals have/get the doctor trait so I have sometimes unexpected heavy losses - especially in the beginning.
Since you mentioned Epeiros too: I started that game for fun, nothing serious (I'm too occupied with other stuff to take a slow approach, sadly), I took Pyrrhos and conquered Pella, then went south to solidify rule and keep the Macedonians in check. Menawhile, I lost Taras - thought I had enough to beat the army besieging the city, but was wrong - so I was in heavy debt and Macedon still had a large army I needed to eliminate, so i made the mistake to walk by Athens. Athenians didn't like it so I had to fight off several armies and was basically forced to take the city - then went on to defeat the Macedonians in an epic battle near Korinthos - and apparently killed off their remaining family members and thus wiping them out rather unplanned. Then went off to Sparta so I could claim rule over Greece.. While my "normal" troops were really beaten already, my elephants remained full strength (until some got killed by my own skirmishers trying "harass" a fleeing enemy - but they were "awared" with the honor of assaulting a city later - sadly, 30 of them survived) and were the source of every victory I had. (they and the Illyrian cavalry - they are awesome, but were down to 10% of their strength by that point). Currently they are fighting in Italy and already played a major part in a crazy battle with loads of trees and a full stack of heavily armored Romans.

Now while there are campaigns were I don't really use elites, I found this to be a lot of fun and they were definitely worth more than their money. Don't get me wrong; I agree on your view, but elites can make a game interesting as well, especially if you have a small army and REALLY need to rely on these troops to win the battle - this gives me a new challenge (I mean beating the AI is only one on occassion) and keeps the game fun and a nice variation from all the basic army fighting I have done (In fact, these were only the second unit of elephants I have ever commanded - which makes me love the little buggers even more ;) )

I always build the doctor building fairly early on, so most of my FMs have a doctor ancillary. It's invaluable in turning small losses into nothing, or even bigger losses into something you can recover from.

Epeiros works really well for any migrated faction idea (or at least any involving a Greek power of some sort). Pergamon is my favourite, I'm giving Massilia a go and considering the Bosphoran Kingdom (which would mean facing off horse archers). I think it helps that I don't much like pike phalanxes or hold their elites in high esteem, though the Agrianians and Thracian heavies are sometimes useful.

Thing is, a lot of the very basic units are actually pretty good handled right. Classical Hoplites, Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, any slingers with some experience, Gallic Light Cavalry to name but a few who are disproportionately good for their cost. Bear in mind I cap any stack at 14-15 units, combine that with no elites, and it can make for some challenging battles against AI full stacks.

[Joe18]

Athenai which is supposed to be a rich city has gone from 1031 mnai per turn to 95 mnai per turn and i don't know why... I'm building the upgraded mines (20 turns 32000 mnai) but i don't think it has anything to do with it because it started long before i started building it. Also is there any trait related to the Agoge in Sparte? If there is how can i get it?

[CorporalJigsore]

At least Koinon Hellenon family members get a notification that they can go to the Spartan Agoge when they come to age. Not sure about Macedonians, haven't really played them in ages.

And did you get the point stated earlier that recruiting more troops decreases your income because upkeep costs increase?

[vollorix]

Macs FM can also complete the Spartan Agoge training ( i guess, any greek faction can, but dunno for Seleucids or Bactria, though ).
Concerning city income: each city pays for the army upkeep, depending on it´s size. And since Athens is your largest town, you see that low income overall, while it´s making you crazy money ( take a look at advanced settlement details ).

[Fluvius Camillus]

Macs FM can also complete the Spartan Agoge training ( i guess, any greek faction can, but dunno for Seleucids or Bactria, though ).
Concerning city income: each city pays for the army upkeep, depending on it´s size. And since Athens is your largest town, you see that low income overall, while it´s making you crazy money ( take a look at advanced settlement details ).

Baktria can, experienced it first hand!

~Fluvius

[Joe18]

At least Koinon Hellenon family members get a notification that they can go to the Spartan Agoge when they come to age. Not sure about Macedonians, haven't really played them in ages.

And did you get the point stated earlier that recruiting more troops decreases your income because upkeep costs increase?

I know and i have stopped recruiting a lot of turns ago. I even disbanded units.

As noted above you'll be told when a new family member comes of age that he can attend the Agoge in Sparte. Basically, he has to get there before he's 20, and then stay there for 4 years. Completing the Agoge normally gives your general +1 influence and +1 morale for his troops, which seems a pretty poor return for 4 years of his life. But you might have someone who excels (+2/+2), or even someone who gets invited to join the Spartan "secret police". And if you build up a good academy in Sparte then your militaristic types can do their studying and get ancillaries while at the Agoge, while your wimpy bureaucrats can do the same in Athens.

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

[QuintusSertorius]

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

Do you have many type IV governments? The upkeep on the Hellenistic Mercenary General (client ruler) is over 1000 mnai a turn. Just a few of those will seriously tax your treasury.

[FriendlyFire]

Does it require a specific goverment type? I have IV there. Is there a special trait/ancillary aqcuired only in Athenai?

I never had a problem getting the Agoge, but I never put a Type IV government in Sparte. You'll have a rebellion very quickly, because every one of your FMs attending the Agoge will get the interloper trait, which means +5% unrest per FM per turn

(Has anyone ever had Spartan eleutheroi appear in a Sparte rebellion? I'm imagining a unit or two of rebel Spartans with double-silver chevrons and gold equipment upgrades... brrrrrr...)

There are no special traits or ancillaries acquired only in Athenai, but of course it starts with an academy, so FMs sent there tend to acquire ancillaries very quickly.

[FriendlyFire]

Thing is, a lot of the very basic units are actually pretty good handled right. Classical Hoplites, Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers, any slingers with some experience, Gallic Light Cavalry to name but a few who are disproportionately good for their cost.

Huge agreement on this. In my Hayasdan armies right now I have classical and Persian hoplites, levy phalangites, Scythian riders, Georgian swordsmen, and various local flavors of archers, spearmen, and axemen. All less than 400 Mnai upkeep, and they're stomping the Greeks quite handily. If Baktria or the Ptolemaioi ever get serious then I might spurge on some mercenary phalangites (>500 Mnai upkeep, the horror!), but apart from that I'll stay cheap - and save up for a Royal Cataphract Army

Also is there any trait related to the Agoge in Sparte? If there is how can i get it?

As noted above you'll be told when a new family member comes of age that he can attend the Agoge in Sparte. Basically, he has to get there before he's 20, and then stay there for 4 years. Completing the Agoge normally gives your general +1 influence and +1 morale for his troops, which seems a pretty poor return for 4 years of his life. But you might have someone who excels (+2/+2), or even someone who gets invited to join the Spartan "secret police". And if you build up a good academy in Sparte then your militaristic types can do their studying and get ancillaries while at the Agoge, while your wimpy bureaucrats can do the same in Athens.