Preview: The Qarthadastim

[Bucefalo]

I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

[[cF]HanBaal]

I think the representation is good, but i hope it does not affect other parts of the ancient world and their representation. I am of the opinion that a Permanent Stone Fort could do the same thing and represent the nuraghi resistance in the interior of the island, without using a province. Still as i said i do not disagree with the team decision, i just hope that there is enough provinces to represent the rest of the world with the same level of detail.

Exactly my thoughts. A precedent has been made and what will happen in the rest of the map remains to be seen. I didn't even know about this possibility of Permanent Stone Forts who would indeed be a better solution too in my opinion.

I think what the team wants, and made a priority of, is to represent the Nuraghi native population and their hinterland in both isles who remained virtually unconquered by 272BC. And that is great. But by doing that they will eliminate the importance of Corsica since now if you conquer Nora in southern Sardinia automatically (coastal) Corsica goes into your hands (?) which is peculiar at least. This would also clash with the history of both islands as i already mentioned (until the battle of Alalia, Corsica was in greek hands and Sardinia was in phoenician hands; in the first punic war romans took Corsica briefly but never Sardinia; the population in coastal Sardinia was basically phoenician while in Corsica was a mix of greeks, etruscans and phoenicians; even the revolts of the native population in both islands were not simultaneous i believe).

Concluding, any of the solutions will not be perfectly balanced but with the possibility of Permanent Stone Forts - one on the hinterland of each island, remaining 2 provinces to represent the coastal colonies of each island - it would get as close to perfection as it could, IF these Permanent Stone Forts represent more than a simple military presence. Question: By conquering them, the province in which they stand will get additional bonuses (law, happiness, trade, farming)?

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe

tell that to phyrrus and hannibal ;)
sometimes i really AM curious how the world would look like had hannibal been properly supported by the carthagian council....

That sir, is the billion dollar question. Incredible decisions were made by then. It wasn't lack of resources who stopped Hanno's party from supporting Hannibal in Italy as he requested right after Cannae, sending his younger brother Mago to Karthadast personally. Instead Hanno sent a large army under Hasdrubal Gisgo to Iberia to take control there (and disrupt the solid Iberian alliances with Hannibal's brother Hasdrubal who was in perfect control of the whole region and also militarily successful till then. Polybius describes this perfectly); at the same time he also sent another large (unsuccessful) expeditions to Sicily and Sardinia (read somewhere that as much as 500 ships were in that one). Maybe Zarax has access to more information on that Sardinian invasion.

Concluding, the resentment from Hanno and his ruling party to Hannibal's father coming from the 1st Punic War/Mercenaries War, as well as, in my opinion, envy for their enourmous successes, both father and son, was the key factor for this war's fate.


Cumps

[Tellos Athenaios]

This is really simple: there are two slots to represent Corsica & Sardinia, just like there were in EB 1. But the historians for Carthage in particular felt that what EB 1 did left something to be desired mainly because the inland regions did not come into play, and the close connection between the two islands was not at all obvious.

[Zarax]

Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

As for the diversion of carthaginian reinforcements to Sardinia it most likely was because it was seen as a golden opportunity to recover the island, given that Hampsicora managed to unite a good share of the nuragic tribes and the roman force there was weakened by disease.
Unfortunately for the carthaginians a storm blew the fleet towards the balearic islands, allowing the romans to defeat the two allies piecemeal as they failed to reunite in time.

Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

EDIT: for those interested in Carthage I'd suggest reading the books by Dexter Hoyos, they are well sourced and pretty well written as well.

[[cF]HanBaal]

Actually Alalia was the culmination of the phocean attempt of gaining a stable foothold in Corsica, which was met with full strength by etruscans and carthaginians.
Although the phoceans won the battle it was called a cadmean (an early version of Pyrrhic) victory and the outcome was the evacuation of Corsica by the greek.
From that date onwards Corsica remained firmly in puno-etruscan hands, with the only known greek action over there being a raid in the early 280s which left no lasting presence.

While it is true the greeks evacuated the island (though i would believe some of them, including half-breeds, would stay around as it happens in every decolonisation process) it is said it were the etruscans who took control of Corsica (others say it was a joint puno-etruscan control), while the phoenicians stayed with full control of Sardinia. A clear distinction in population and customs must have been present then, at least in the coastal colonies. It is not known exactly up until when they kept firm control of the island (you mentioned 280BC?) but in 452BC Syracusan ships attacked both Etruria and Corsica which leads to indicate Corsica was under Etruscan control.

Had the carthaginians been successful they would have recovered an economically important province as although there is no solid data about the punic period the island was rich in grain and metals, quoting Solinus: "India ebore, argento Sardinia, Attica melle" ("India is famous for ivory, Sardinia for silver and Attica for honey"), not to mention fresh mercenary forces.

Wether Hanno strategy was the best or not I dunno. I'm with Hannibal, i would concentrate my forces on the enemy's heart, especially considering it was bleeding as never before.

cumps

[Zarax]

Excavations in Alalia found a pretty even mix of punic and etruscan remains in corsica, while in sardinia etruscan ones dwindle the more west you go (although in some nuragic villages they were more prominent than punic ones).

As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

[Paltmull]

@cf hanbaal i really can´t wait for the arevaci preview ^^ altough i suspect they will be one of the hardest factions to jumpstart once on their way they should give a iberian/celtic flavour to the game

The Arevaci and the Numidians will add a LOT of fun to the area and to both Karthadastim and Lusotannan campaigns. Right as it should have been since EB1. But the greek/eastern lobby was too strong in the team by then ehehe

Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

[Zarax]

With 20 factions it was a hard choice, 31 gave us more room but still we would have liked more slots.

[Paltmull]

Ok, now I'm confused. What I meant was: Will the Arevaci be a faction in EBII? If so, when was that confirmed? I can't remember hearing about it.

[Tanit]

We have only chosen and implemented a small number of the new faction slots, most of which have been revealed. For the remaining faction slots we are saving work on them for after first release to speed up development, although practice development threads have been done for most of the possible faction choices, these remaining possibilities include the Arevaci, it is possible that someone may have leaked them as a confirmed faction as a result.

[Paltmull]

Ok, thanks :)

[[cF]HanBaal]

As for the global strategy, given the almost total dominance of the punic senate by the barcids I think many tend to overestimate Hanno's role in the military strategy.

Nope.

"For years past they have been trying to force me back by refusing me reinforcements and money; but now they recall me no longer by indirect means, but in plain words. Hannibal has been conquered not by the Roman people whom he defeated so many times in battle and put to flight, but by the envy and continual disparagement of the Carthaginian senate. At this unlovely and shameful return of mine it will not be Scipio who will be wild with triumph and delight, but rather Hanno, whose only way of ruining me and my house has been by ruining Carthage”-Livy’s reports of Hannibal’s response to Carthage’s recall order


Carthaginian political will was embodied in the ruling oligarchy. While there was a Carthaginian Senate, the real power in Carthage was with the inner "Council of 30 Nobles" and the board of judges from ruling families known as the "Hundred and Four". These two bodies consisted of the wealthy, commercial families of Carthage. Regarding the senate, two political factions operated in Carthage: the war party, also known as the "Barcids" and the peace party led by Hanno the Great. Hanno had been instrumental in denying Hannibal’s requested reinforcement following the battle at Cannae. Hannibal attacked Saguntum (who were attacking their iberian allies, the Tordoletes) without the full backing of Carthaginian oligarchy and this presented them with the possibility of war with Rome or loss of prestige in Iberia, where the virtually unlimited silver mines helped their decision. When roman diplomats went to the Carthaginian Senate and declared war, they accepted. The oligarchy and not Hannibal controlled the strategic resources of Carthage. Hannibal constantly sought reinforcement from either Iberia or North Africa. In Iberia, the turmoil provoked by the army sent by the Senate under Hasdrubal Gisgo to control the Iberian holdings, who mistreated several of the Iberian warlords allied to Hannibal as related by Polybius, as well as roman presence north of the Ebro, delayed some years the initial plan of reinforcements by Hasdrubal Barca to Italy by the same route through the Alps. And in Carthage, the commercial interests of the Carthaginian oligarchy led by Hanno, as well as envy and resentment to the Barcas coming from the 1st Punic War, dictated the reinforcement of Iberia, as well as Sicily and Sardinia, rather than Hannibal throughout the duration of the campaign.

To better understand Hanno's party dominance and where this own personal envy and resentment comes from, that compromised both wars, I recommend reading more about the first Punic War, the Mercenaries War and the departure of the Barcas to Iberia. I'll search a good source and post it here when i have more time.

Say what now? When was the Arevaci confirmed as a faction?

lol. I only mentioned the Arevaci cause moonburn mentioned them before. i dont know if they will be in game, though im pretty sure another Iberian faction will make it.

cumps