[Council of Villains] A State of Corruption [Concluded]

[Double A]

unvote, vote: Thefluffyone

It seems to me like he used his general insanity as the joker from last game to try to get people not to pay attention to him any more. I also have a gut feeling, but that could just be my stomach growling.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No, you need to die stat. That is a seriously beefy move and no reason to think he's scum.

YOU CAN LYNCH ANYONE. ANYONE FROM THE ENTIRE LIST. WE HAVE 24 HOURS.

But it's all a brilliant plot by your part? I have randomly voted no one. You know better.

[Romanic]

vote: Tincow

Wouldn't have to do this if certain people would unvote. Just need a few.

@ATPG : Can you explain your logic here? The tally was 11-8 in favor of TinCow, so I'm not seeing why you needed to vote for him. However it seems to me that you would need to do this "if certain people would unvote". So yeah, I'm not understanding why you chose to vote TinCow at that point.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

unvote, vote: Beefy

lesser of the evils, seems to want to die.

Vote: Beefy. Sorry friend, but you want to die, and I don't .

TRY AGAIN

Vote: Beefy

To avoid being night killed. This incredibly scummy tactic will discourage mafias to kill me, thus buying me more time to do stuff during night phase.
Only problem is that this might get me lynched. So if I am under pressure I am either going to vote for Glenn or join vote for someone who has decent case against them.

[woad&fangs]

unvote: Beefy; Vote: Seon
That last post was the only thing that triggered my scumdar this entire phase.

[Romanic]

Motep mentioned that (all?) mafia had the ability to kill one of their voter in the previous instances of "Council of Vilains".

1) Is this true?
2) Did every mafia player have this ability, or only a few (or only one)?
3) Could scum partners be killed if they were voting for the lynchee?

I'm too lazy to look for this myself. Particularly interested in answer #3.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No, you need to die stat. That is a seriously beefy move and no reason to think he's scum.

There's no reason to think I am either.

When I try to come up with alternative suspects, that's wrong because we can't vote for Beefy because he's acting like himself, which he does as town or mafia, and I can't vote for Nictel because that's flat out stupid that I would be silly enough to vote for someone based upon their behavior, whether you and Reenk agree with my analysis or not, I was foolish for trying. I point out why we shouldn't vote for Glenn, and people boo and hiss and OMG we can't use any logic, ironclad or merely convincing, to try to lynch intelligently and avoid what seems to me like an obviously bad lynch. I offered Jarema as a suspect, no one cared. I can keep coming up with more if you'd like.

Would you prefer I just copy your vote and act as your proxy? Would it be okay with you if I tried to come up with my own suspects, or is that too much to ask?

I agree Beefy's a bad lynch, but I don't KNOW that for certain. I also think other people are worse lynches, but I don't know that for certain. But since every idea I have is being pooped on, why doesn't someone just tell me what the solution is, and the correct answer, and we'll just do that?

I think Seon's a worse lynch than Beefy. I think Glenn is a way worse lynch than Beefy. I think I'm the worst lynch of the bunch.

Sure, I could pick someone else. I could pick a totally random person. But somehow, I have a feeling, whoever I pick, just ain't gonna be good enough for Sasaki.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If you don't want me to call you mafia, don't vote for people you think are bad lynches and act like you think there are good reasons to vote them and don't give up on a day with 24 hours left.

I haven't been saying "pizza you are town and playing badly" I've been finding things you've done mafia like. Although I doubt that more right now.

[pevergreen]

Glenn is a great lynch.

Seon is a better lynch than Beefy.

Unvote, Vote: Seon

[Askthepizzaguy]

If you don't want me to call you mafia, don't vote for people you think are bad lynches and act like you think there are good reasons to vote them and don't give up on a day with 24 hours left.

I can vote for Beefy if I want to, by the way. There is nothing besides his WIFOM behavior to work from when determining his guilt or innocence. You're acting like it's a law that Beefy must be innocent here, but it's not true. He's done similar things as mafia before. The only reason he even made the tie was because of a late woad vote. He's a legitimate suspect.

If you want me to give your opinion more weight, it would be nice if you could go for just a little bit before freaking out and calling for my head for having the gall to disagree with you, after you've already accepted the fact that I'm a bad lynch. It's really hard to work with someone who seems to go out of his way to make no sense.

You want more intelligent lynches than these? Good, that's common ground. How about we work from there?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'll work from anywhere other than "lesser of two evils, seems to want to die". A beefy scumflip would be luck, and he's worth leaving around.

How about seon parroting your "wants to die" line and revealing that he had no idea what beefy actually said?

[Romanic]

I've considered that idea. The thing is that Jill Valentine is IDFH... And Samus pulling that on day one is stupidly risky. I think it refers to the defender, but I'm not sure.
[...]

@Ironside: (on the bold part) How do you know Jill Valentine is IDFH?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

hah, a search for "jill valentine idfh" turns up ironsides post as the first result.

[Csargo]

Join me ATPG. JJJJJOOOOOOIIIIIIINNNNNN MMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'll work from anywhere other than "lesser of two evils, seems to want to die". A beefy scumflip would be luck, and he's worth leaving around.

How about seon parroting your "wants to die" line and revealing that he had no idea what beefy actually said?

I can explain that. When a sudden wagon formed on Seon, I consulted him in private and asked who he was and just how bad of a lynch he would be, and what he knew.

(I really don't understand why more people don't try to question their suspects when they're already about to be lynched.)

What Seon told me was not convincing or unconvincing, but it gave me a place to start from, and I determined and confirmed with others that Seon would be a lousy lynch for a few specific reasons I won't go into here. The point is, I would have been able to confirm or deny his story within a day or two.

Since I had been talking to Seon, and we agreed to wagon someone else together, that's why Beskar, Seon, and I all moved as one with similar reasoning.

Seon's a bad lynch, for now, if simply because there's information to be gained. That's my call. If you don't agree, and others don't agree, it's not the end of the world if he dies. If he dies and was telling the truth, I gave it my honest try to do something helpful and it got shot down, and we move on, hopefully.


You think Romanic is worth lynching? You mentioned something about him, and I have no reason to disagree.

Join me ATPG. JJJJJOOOOOOIIIIIIINNNNNN MMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEE

I'm trying, buddy. I want there to be common ground, but man, tonight is not my night.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I could go for JohnH, he doesn't seem to believe his reasoning on his votes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I could go for JohnH, he doesn't seem to believe his reasoning on his votes.

Very well. Although I would ask that until we pick a decent candidate, we not make any large wagons. It's possible I ask John who the heck he is and I find out he's a much worse lynch than Seon. I dunno; I'd hate to have our attempts at a good lynch blow up in our faces with a horrendous one instead.

You're very much correct in that we have 24 hours to work with, and we should use them wisely. More wisely than the last day phase, anyway.

unvote, vote: Johnhughthom

Because I don't have any reason not to, presently. Could you link back to your reasons on him, Sasaki?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's gut not reason really:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053242718

And I'd notice one earlier post that I'd forgotten.

I am very dubious about you getting town-confirming or useful information just by asking people who they are. My analysis of the setup + TinCow's in thread comments makes me very sure the mafia have fakeclaims (same as other council games) and a deep scan is required to see who they really are.

[Romanic]

You think Romanic is worth lynching? You mentioned something about him, and I have no reason to disagree.

Hello! Trying to spread bad ideas on me, are we?

Can you answer this post please? I know Sasaki is interesting, but I ahead in line.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's gut not reason really:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053242718

And I'd notice one earlier post that I'd forgotten.

I am very dubious about you getting town-confirming or useful information just by asking people who they are. My analysis of the setup + TinCow's in thread comments makes me very sure the mafia have fakeclaims (same as other council games) and a deep scan is required to see who they really are.

No, what I didn't get was useful information, what I got was potentially useful and confirmable information. Beskar has the deep scanner we need. And, I'm not trusting that one 100% either, we do know of a second scanner and there are other ways to confirm to a 99% degree about certain things. If Seon gets killed in the meantime, that also means I don't have to lynch him. It's worth it either way.

I'm well aware just how useless a claim is, in and of itself. If this were just based on Seon's claim, I would have let you take all the blame for his death and done nothing to stop you. The fake claims aren't a factor here; someone could claim to be Captain Falcon and have a trove of information that seems to confirm such; I know all about the idea that he could still be guilty because creative hosts like Chaotix would give a big bad scum the kind of tools they need to look very townie. I wouldn't base my reaction off of just his claim itself. In fact I'd probably be suspicious of any powerful role I couldn't confirm 100% wasn't mafia.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ATPG : Can you explain your logic here? The tally was 11-8 in favor of TinCow, so I'm not seeing why you needed to vote for him. However it seems to me that you would need to do this "if certain people would unvote". So yeah, I'm not understanding why you chose to vote TinCow at that point.

At the time, people were unvoting Tincow, and one even voted for one of the alternative candidates to try for a double-lynch. Meanwhile, you have to figure there are possibly some useful townie power roles in the wagon, and if they all get chased away, it could allow Tincow to escape the round. Some people needed to volunteer to fill the gap. One vote switch could have made it 10-9 instead of 11-8, and that's an unacceptable margin for error, especially when the trend was to unvote Tincow.

I also mentioned if people unvoted the other candidates, which would have been a good idea. That way, even if most people flee the Tincow wagon, he still gets lynched and the overdrive goes onto one of the people who volunteered to die.

I didn't feel it was necessary to make it that explicit; anyone who saw what was going on and thought about it for a few seconds would have concluded the same as I did, unless they're the type to basically never agree with me.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I just want to throw out some mafia theory I'm toying with.

At this stage in the game, the day period is not about lynching mafia. It's about not lynching town. So you find someone who seems somewhat scummy and wagon, and see how you feel about it, and find someone else and compare, and judge other top candidates. And if you feel ok about all of them you lynch someone else.

Imagine it was a 7 player game with 1 scum, and lynches were random.

1/7 chance day one.
1/5 chance day two.
1/3 chance day three.

68% chance. Good odds.

Now imagine you can get a town read on one person a day...

1/6 chance day one.
1/4 chance day two.
1/2 chance day three.

92%. Excellent. And that assumes the mafia kill the person who we got a town read on each night.

Well, I don't know how well the 7 person example works. But you get the idea.

JohnH has a good chance of just being lazy town. But it's best to move away from people we are feeling ok about and have something on, even to lynch purely randomly.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think I get what you're saying, Sasaki. However, it's going to be a little different in this game because of conversion. The mafia are not forced to murder people we get townie reads on.

Ordinarily it's a workable theory; this game might not be the best one to test it out on. I'd save it for the next game.

[Reenk Roink]

When I try to come up with alternative suspects, that's wrong because we can't vote for Beefy because he's acting like himself, which he does as town or mafia, and I can't vote for Nictel because that's flat out stupid that I would be silly enough to vote for someone based upon their behavior, whether you and Reenk agree with my analysis or not, I was foolish for trying. I point out why we shouldn't vote for Glenn, and people boo and hiss and OMG we can't use any logic, ironclad or merely convincing, to try to lynch intelligently and avoid what seems to me like an obviously bad lynch. I offered Jarema as a suspect, no one cared. I can keep coming up with more if you'd like.

Why all the melodrama and strawmen? Nobody is saying that you shouldn't vote for someone based on behavior or use logic (whatever that means since it's pretty clear you ain't using 'logic' properly in that statement), that's pretty much the main reason people are voted on. People like me are instead pointing out that analyzing things on PAST behavior is very easily countered by Mafia, and wanting to know why you interpret Nictel's post as "flinching" and describe it with many adjectives. You basically said very little using many words on why Nictel was guilty, and pushed it very hard for a early round lynch.

Would you prefer I just copy your vote and act as your proxy? Would it be okay with you if I tried to come up with my own suspects, or is that too much to ask?

Don't do that! Was he not going all save Beefy recently, I would have found his house and cut his power so I didn't have to read those hyperventilating posts.

How about seon parroting your "wants to die" line and revealing that he had no idea what beefy actually said?

Means he's not paying close attention maybe? You are actually hurting the case on Seon which was better before you jumped on it.

[Link]

Re-reading yesterday, this post also struck me as off:



At the time was one of 14 voters for Tincow, with Nictel in a close second place thanks to landlubber's attempt at a tie vote. Was a one in 14 chance of dying really that much of a threat for you, Jarema? May I ask what you've been doing with your time at night, since you're not one of the claimed investigators that are crawling all over the place. You obviously have some kind of night action, or you wouldn't have been trying to get the random kill off of your back, and would have instead welcomed such an outcome.

I don't know about you, but the town is made up of survivalists. Implying that were he to die, even if the town wins, he would lose. Don't accuse someone of seeking to win.

Vote: ATPG

Because he said something in private which only TinCow has said a few hours later. I messaged you back Pizza, asking for clarification, but it just looks scummy as if you two are sharing a quicktopic or similar.

Very vague. I might be further inclined to believe you were you to offer up a bit of proof.

vote: glenn

Offer an explanation of some sort, unless you just wanted to bandwagon someone.In which case, tell me why we shouldn't lynch you.

The second part of the Zelda game, where I personally took down about half of the cult team and also wiped out the mafia team single-handedly? It was your own fault for allowing two claimed Lovers to exist until the end, seriously. I was acting pro-town then, far more pro-town than anyone else, and kicking serious butt.

Whichever. I knew that attempting to vote for people who deserved it would get me votes. I also knew actively attempting to destroy mafioso in this mafia-tilted game would be a bad idea. Better would have been to employ Beefy's strategy which is to sit down and shut up and hope you don't get murdered and that you get recruited.

Go ahead folks, lynch me. You deserve it.

This isn't a testament to your innocence or your guilt. Acting as if you don't care whether you die doesn't mean anything.

Vote: Insanious

Care to elaborate?

@ATPG : Can you explain your logic here? The tally was 11-8 in favor of TinCow, so I'm not seeing why you needed to vote for him. However it seems to me that you would need to do this "if certain people would unvote". So yeah, I'm not understanding why you chose to vote TinCow at that point.

Maybe one of his scum buddies was on that wagon, and he wanted to lessen their chance of dying, because they are more important than him.

Unvote Vote: Jarrema

[Beskar]

@Ironside: (on the bold part) How do you know Jill Valentine is IDFH?

I will need to scroll back to read his post in full, but from what you quoted, I will respond.

Out of GF and IDFH, and every GF member has 'GF' in their name, and every IDFH has been a 'hero' character. This would place me on the IDFH side of things.

From the information I can seem to gather though, Phazon are using IDFH members as cover roles and Samus is using GF roles as cover roles. The 'Hero' faction seems to possess both 'GF and IDFH' typical members.

So according this, if I was on a mafia team, it would be on TinCow's team, not Samus or on Team Samus.

This goes back to YLC's far-out-there theory, where I am TinCow's team mate. This is also arguably not true because TinCow is using his resources to kill me off. This is from him accusing me of being Samus, his team has night killed me, they have night killed people I know in Real Life in attempt to get at me, and his various other methods. In short, if I was Tincow's team mate, him and his team wouldn't be putting in a serious effort to kill me.

[Romanic]

JHT was one of the early voters on TinCow, and kept his vote there until the end, so if you're looking for a reason not to vote him, that's it. Also, the psot Sasaki linked means nada, JHT and Winston have a history of voting for each other. They normally do it on Day 1, and I realize this is Day 3, but I'm not sure if the reason John gave, to vote Winston today, was serious. I guess he could clarify that.

Thus I'm surprised that you're ready to lynch one of the TinCow voters, I think they deserve some credit for now, even if there's at least 2 anti-town factions. It would be nice to know if TinCow's partners could have been killed if they were voting for him, because if that's the case, we can probably assume that none of them were.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes. It was better before, now I'd rather go for someone else.

It's good to express your feelings in a mafia game.

@pizza: it's not a theory to try, it's what I think has worked well in the past. Essentially we get extra lynches, without killing anyone.

[Reenk Roink]

I just want to throw out some mafia theory I'm toying with.

Oh goody.

At this stage in the game, the day period is not about lynching mafia. It's about not lynching town.

Almost a vacuous tautology given that there is no no lynch; perhaps an endorsement to go ahead and kill protown roles?

Might as well kill Glenn if this is what you're thinking because he will be WoG'd anyway.

blah

As Atpg pointed out, conversion means 'avoiding lynching town' will very likely not work. Might as well go and kill people who look like they want to join Mafia, in which case Beefy seems like the best pick (although I'm very saddened if this happens).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't vote for someone based on behavior or use logic (whatever that means since it's pretty clear you ain't using 'logic' properly in that statement), that's pretty much the main reason people are voted on. People like me are instead pointing out that analyzing things on PAST behavior is very easily countered by Mafia, and wanting to know why you interpret Nictel's post as "flinching" and describe it with many adjectives. You basically said very little using many words on why Nictel was guilty, and pushed it very hard for a early round lynch.

I don't believe I've found a method of analysis or reasoning for votes that you've ever agreed with; I also don't think I've found a suspect that you and I have ever agreed on. You are critical of my methods but short of just nodding and agreeing with what you say, I don't think I'm going to meet your expectations.

Maybe my methods are different than yours, and if we all behaved the same way or played the same way, the game would be boring. I don't ask you to stop being Reenk; let me be Pizza.