Western foreign policy, when push comes to shove: Democracy sacrificed for Stability?

[Fragony]

yeah ok, you are being orientalist now.

OK, if that's a bad thing I'll just put it in my collection. Consensus driven policy just happens to be a western thing, non-western democracy is usually a facade.

[al Roumi]

OK, if that's a bad thing I'll just put it in my collection.

I just mean that you are saying that they are different people/cultures so should be considered differently, which is ironic because I'm normaly harping on about tolerance...

Consensus driven policy just happens to be a western thing, non-western democracy is usually a facade.

It certainly is in many cases, but that isn't actually democracy. Elections do not a democracy make, yet the two are very commonly, and quite incorrectly, conflated to be the same thing. Elections are widely abused and used as a fig-leaf for more naked dictatorship.

[Idaho]

OK, if that's a bad thing I'll just put it in my collection. Consensus driven policy just happens to be a western thing, non-western democracy is usually a facade.

Any examples to back this up, or are you shooting from the hip again?

[Subotan]

Japan, South Korea and India are all examples of non-Western countries with secure democracies. True, all were heavily influenced by Western ideas of democracy, but which democracy isn't?

[Fragony]

Any examples to back this up, or are you shooting from the hip again?

Kidding me? Can you name me one African or Middle-Eastern democracy that can hold a candle to the western ones? They have a running joke in Egypt where a burglar finds the winners of the next elections, such fatalist humour exists for a reason. Means to and end, not democracy as the end. Not saying they are unfit for democracy, but these countries are much more complicated. Again, clanwars 2.0, less bloody, but hardly ideal. And often bloody.

[Leet Eriksson]

Kidding me? Can you name me one African or Middle-Eastern democracy that can hold a candle to the western ones? They have a running joke in Egypt where a burglar finds the winners of the next elections, such fatalist humour exists for a reason. Means to and end, not democracy as the end. Not saying they are unfit for democracy, but these countries are much more complicated. Again, clanwars 2.0, less bloody, but hardly ideal. And often bloody.

lol are you serious? how is egypt a democracy again? just because it calls itself one doesn't mean it is. This is a rather euro/western centric view to claim that non-western countries have no agency and are only capable of being ruled by an iron fist, too simplistic and terribly wrong.

[Fragony]

lol are you serious? how is egypt a democracy again? just because it calls itself one doesn't mean it is. This is a rather euro/western centric view to claim that non-western countries have no agency and are only capable of being ruled by an iron fist, too simplistic and terribly wrong.

Exactly what I said no?

[Subotan]

Botswana

[al Roumi]

Botswana

Ghana's not bad either. (AFAIK)

[al Roumi]

Exactly what I said no?

Yeah but the difference is that you say Egypt has a crap democracy because Egyptian people/society can't handle/don't want democracy.

I think we have to recognise that societies look different after a period of a particular kind of rule, be it capitalist, democracy, communist, dictatorship etc. If you were to look at France prior to 1780, would you think it was suitable for democratic rule?

Also, what do you think would make a country suitable for democratic rule? Because from the sound of what you are saying, it sounds like a country would have to already be a democracy...

[Fragony]

Yeah but the difference is that you say Egypt has a crap democracy because Egyptian people/society can't handle/don't want democracy.

I think we have to recognise that societies look different after a period of a particular kind of rule, be it capitalist, democracy, communist, dictatorship etc. If you were to look at France prior to 1780, would you think it was suitable for democratic rule?

Also, what do you think would make a country suitable for democratic rule? Because from the sound of what you are saying, it sounds like a country would have to already be a democracy...

No I said that it's complex, it is, we simply can't expect the same from a devided people, here we fought things out and there we cut things up, look at Africa's borders. All African nations are are a joke, they are western inventions. Can we at least be honost about that

[Idaho]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

[al Roumi]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

well yah. But surely more than just economics? no?

[Idaho]

well yah. But surely more than just economics? no?

Economic mode defines political superstructure. Political structure is the very expression of economics.

[Fragony]

You have to compare countries with similar economic situations to even approach a reasonable comparison. I thought that was so obvious I didn't need to stipulate.

There really aren't any economy's to compare to draw any conclusion whatsoever, unless you want to live in the alternative reality that is social theory. If things would be better it would be better, is that really a point?

[Idaho]

There really aren't any economy's to compare to draw any conclusion whatsoever, unless you want to live in the alternative reality that is social theory. If things would be better it would be better, is that really a point?

Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are the only non-western nations which have a similar level of western wealth...and unamazingly, they have similar capitalist democracies.