Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Populus Romanus]

But why is it a bad idea to levy a fleet? A fleet is crucial to the success of the Alliance. We need to have a fleet to capture Mitylene, save Sinope, and there is no way we can allow the Makedonians to control the sea.

You can't kill me! THIS IS SPARTA! I grab your blade with my bare hands and twist it backwards to make it useless! (Plus, I am just as much an Orgah as a Centerite, albiet a lower postcount. Which means that I both Athenian and Spartan. Is that possible? No. In that case, I am really a Rhodian, secretly spying on you both!) And you're one to talk, after you were spying on us Spartans. You are lucky we did not kick you into the Garbage Disposal Of Death. Muwahahaha!

[jirisys]

But why is it a bad idea to levy a fleet? A fleet is crucial to the success of the Alliance.

You can't kill me! THIS IS SPARTA! I grab your blade with my bare hands and twist it backwards to make it useless! (Plus, I am just as much an Orgah as a Centerite, albiet a lower postcount.)

And you're one to talk, after you were spying on us Spartans. You are lucky we did not kick you into the Garbage Disposal Of Death. Muwahahaha!

I proposed to hire some pirates, why can't anybody see that???

Yeah, I don't mind you coming here and spying, but don't propose legislation when you pledged alliegance to sparta already...

~Jirisys (You like Star Wars eh?)

[Hotseat_User]

zhis will be good i guess. Nice idea Molin!

I propose: Pay (move_char...) some pirates to ship a small athenian skirimish-force to Lesbos. If these men fight like true hellenes and the Myrthilenes(sp?) are of true hellen blood too, they will have sucess.

Further besiege Chalkis 'till they surrender and let the garrision walk home in peace so we can show our democratic mercy.

And: let the Strategos defend the vulnerable borders (north attika and Thermyphilae(sp?)) against makedon forces.

Civillian H_U has spoken

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I disbanded the fleet during the first 3 seasons, in which I played by my own will to get the game in a position where I felt would be better to start the participation system, and also because I wanted a good-looking update with screenshots and everything to start it off.

It was not a bad decision, in my opinion, as the Macedonian ships don't mean any harm. My decision can't have been so wrong since Drag0nUL was also going to suggest disbanding the ships himself.

Maintaining the fleet wouldn't have cost much money, since at least two-thirds of the ships would have been sunk in battle during the first year of the campaign. And the Macedonian ships hopefully would have all been sunk.

The Macedonian ships indeed aren't much threat - but ONLY because we are 'exploiting' the stupidity of the AI to do anything meaningful with them.

If Macedon was controlled by a human player, he would now send one Macedonian ship to each of our main ports, Rhodes, Athens, and Corinth, and blockade them. Our economy would be crippled, spiralling us into endless debt. And without ships of our own, and no money, there would be nothing we could do about it unless we disbanded most of our army to pay for a new fleet.

That's why, just for the purposes of realistic roleplaying, I would have preferred not to disband the fleet. Koinon Hellenon would never have done that in reality. Rhodes and Athens were both completely economically dependent on control of the sea historically.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I meant that we should liberate it from the pontic people, since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time before it fell to pontic hands.

~Jirisys ()

Not necessarily. Pontus has more men and superb cavalry, but Sinope has infantry of higher quality. Also Pontic phalangites are not very good at assaults. Sinope may manage to drive off the Pontic army without help.

[Vaginacles]

I PROPOSE that Athen's army assault Chalkis immediately. Euboea is a wealthy province that would provide us with the money and manpower we desperately need for the defense of Sinopes and the conquest of Myiles. We do not need the allied Army marching through Attika to assault such a weak city, Let them deal with the Macedonian threat in Boetia and Thessaly.

Thus I PROPOSE that we allow them to cross the Isthmus of Cornith ONLY if to invade Thessaly.

I DISAGREE with Jirisy's strategy of passivity, we ought not to allow the macedonians to regain the initiative and bring superior forces upon us, an aggressive assault on macedonia will catch them unaware, especially since the Macedonian King's eye is not on Thessaly or Euboea, but on Pella against the mighty Pyrrhus. He would not expect an incursion by greek troops into his homeland, and if he did what could he do to stop both Greece and Eprius?

Therefore, i also PROPOSE we seek an alliance with Eprius so that the Macedonian king's fall will be inevitable.

[Walle]

I AGREE with Vaginacles. We can't afford to be too passive, and Epeiros would be a valuable ally, both in military terms as help against Makedonia, and economically, if we get trade rights as well.

Also, I PROPOSE that we start trading with the naval powers to the west, Karthadast and Roma.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I AGREE with all three of Vaginacles' proposals.

[Vaginacles]

I AGREE with Walle's proposal

[jirisys]

I PROPOSE that Athen's army assault Chalkis immediately. Euboea is a wealthy province that would provide us with the money and manpower we desperately need for the defense of Sinopes and the conquest of Myiles. We do not need the allied Army marching through Attika to assault such a weak city, Let them deal with the Macedonian threat in Boetia and Thessaly.

Thus I PROPOSE that we allow them to cross the Isthmus of Cornith ONLY if to invade Thessaly.

I DISAGREE with Jirisy's strategy of passivity, we ought not to allow the macedonians to regain the initiative and bring superior forces upon us, an aggressive assault on macedonia will catch them unaware, especially since the Macedonian King's eye is not on Thessaly or Euboea, but on Pella against the mighty Pyrrhus. He would not expect an incursion by greek troops into his homeland, and if he did what could he do to stop both Greece and Eprius?

Therefore, i also PROPOSE we seek an alliance with Eprius so that the Macedonian king's fall will be inevitable.

You really don't read, I specifically said that the allied army not to march upon our lands only for defense. We haven't prohibited the spartans to cross Corinth. just Attike. We haven't asked for them to siege chalkis, the can't because of our agreement. What passivity? I ordered an attack on Chalkis, it's besieged, build a fleet, Mytilene (not Myiles), then try to help the Sinopeans, that's passivity for you? I said we should ask for trade rights with the epeirotai, but, point taken, an alliance will be better.

I AGREE with Vaginacles' proposals I, II & IV (because it's the same thing I said).

I AGREE with Walle's proposal.

I DISAGREE with Vaginacles' proposal III because I never stated such things, and it is actually the opposite of what I said.

~Jirisys (please read and say which proposals you disagree or agree with, makes it much clearer)

[jirisys]

I PROPOSE we must levy some more hoplites, from Athens, so that it may defend her and/or help the besiegers.
I PROPOSE we must make the Makedonian army to attack us, so whe have the upper hand in defense, and destroy their army and make their city capitulate.
I PROPOSE we must hire some pirates (Lemboi) either in Rhodos or Athenai, so we can, first, capture Mytilene and also make a hybrid assault on Sinope when it is captured since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time.
I PROPOSE, since the spartans have been so understanding, we must allow them to traverse to Attike, but only the Ally army and only to defend Athenai (as an excuse so we have more men for the siege and consequent invasions).
I PROPOSE we must acquire trade rights with the Epeirotai, and propose a ceasefire with Basileion ton Pontos, so that they do not imagine our intentions.
I PROPOSE we must ask Moolinaargh not to reveal our secret objectives in the Spartan assembly and vice-versa .

I meant that we should liberate it from the pontic people, since we wouldn't be able to arrive in time before it fell to pontic hands.

~Jirisys ()

I already said what everything is proposing... I'm guessing that counts as agreeing (say Civilian H_U said the same thing I did, Vaginacles too) besides, there's no change in my proposals and his...

Also clarifying, no army besides the athenian army can traverse Attike, I proposed a freer approach, but still with heavy restrictions.

~Jirisys (Please do an update soon, and clarify if you are proposing and what, Civilian H_U's proposal wasn't clear at first)

[Molinaargh]

The council session for 270BC is now over. An update will be made soon.

Thanks for your participation, guys!

[Vaginacles]

You said we must make the macedonians attack us, which implies that we let them attack our besieging army, which i am against. We cannot FORCE macedonia into battle unless we play the role of the attacker. We must not forget that macedonia controls the seas and can reinforce euboea at any time, thus the sooner we take the city, the better it is for the safety of Athens. Macedonia may decide to take advantage of our poorly garrisoned polis and may plan to attack Athens while our army is off campaigning, this is clearly unfavorable.

Also, i disagree with allowing the spartans to enter Attica to defend us, it is better if they engage in an offensive war outside of attica, to spare our fields from devastation and prevent a depletion of our grain reserves. No the allied army must not enter Attica and defend, they must do what spartans do best and fight offensively in Thessaly. That is what is best for Athens.

As for your proposal to hire pirates for the invasion of Myile, what will become of them afterwards? are we to let them free to harrass merchant vessels that carry our goods to and fro the Agean? Or should we break the word of friends and enslave them, and commandeer their vessals? No, Jirisy, we cannot afford to ally ourselves with brigands and outlaws, not if you want Athen's honor to remain intacted after this ordeal. Would you have the Spartans call us Brigands and outlaws because we were too weak to build our own Triremes, having to rely on scum to do what our forefathers were masters of?

[Molinaargh]

270 BC

Athenian orders:
-Attack the Macedonians immediatly, attempting to capture Chalkis (Yes).
-Hire a fleet to eventually attack Asia Minor (Not yet).
-Only allow the Alliance Army to pass through Attika (Yes).
-Trade rights and Alliance with the Epeirotai (Yes)
-Trade rights with Karthadast and Roma (Not yet).
-Ceasefire with Basileion ton Pontos (Yes).

Spartan orders:
-Engage the Macedonians to the north of Attika with the Alliance Army (Yes).
-Besiege Demetrias if possible (Not yet).
-Improve recruitment in Sparta, attempting not to rely on Athenian cavalry (Yes).
-Strenghten alliance with Corinth (Yes).
-Trade rights with Epeiros (Yes).
-Fleet should be built only in Rhodes (Not yet).
-Peace with Pontos (Yes).

(I'm sorry if you feel your orders deserved to but didn't make to the final list, some orders were conflicting and I had to leave them out. I also think it's nice to both cities to have a summary on what the other one is doing, allows for more interaction rather than each doing their own thing.)

By the end of the winter, Chremonides recieved orders from Athens to assault Chalkis.


He did so, but against his will.


The Macedonians had sent reinforcements, and now outnumbered the Athenians by a lot.


But the Athenians, even outnumbered, were ready to fight.








In a bloody battle, the Athenian army was almost completely wiped out, but managed to conquer Chalkis.





Later, after the region was pacified Chremonides would write to the Athenian Council asking what kind of relationship Athens and the Alliance would have with Chalkis.


Meanwhile, in Asia Minor, a treaty was signed with Pontos.




Back in Athenai, a small Macedonian army besieged the city.


Due to the almost total elimination of the Athenian forces in the siege of Chalkis and their necessity to remain in the city as garrison, there was no opposition to the Alliance Army, led by a Spartan, to march through Attike, as the council ordered - and while at it, defend Athens.


Since the Spartan army wouldn't go anywhere, Areus brought some of the Spartans with him in the Alliance Army. The Alliance Army attacked the besiegers of Athens, who were not many. Certainly the Macedonians expected the Athenian garrison to be low on men, but they did not expect the Alliance Army led by Sparta.











As agreed upon by both Athens and Sparta, the Epeirotes were seeked out.


And a profitable deal was made with the son of Pyrrhos.


Hopefully the army of Pyrrhos would help the Hellenes in the future.


In Korinthos, the Spartan Hegemon ordered public buildings and strengthened the relations between Sparta and Corinth.


Although there was still the matter of the nature of these relations.


In Sparta itself, the military recruitment structure was improved, as ordered by the Spartan council.


In the North, the Macedonians besieged Serdike.


And in Rhodes, Agathokles died of old age.


This is the situation of the Koinon Hellenon as of now, winter of the year 270BC.


The Athenian Boule session is now open to decide what must be done in 269BC.

[Populus Romanus]

Nice! Up Sparte.

[jirisys]

It didn't go excellent, but it went well.

I PROPOSE we build a democratic Kleroucheia on Chalkis so that our Constitution may reach even further, with even more support.
I PROPOSE, since vaginacles pointed out my barbarism, that we build our own fleet, proud in the sea, of pentekonteroi.
I PROPOSE that we levy more hoplites and build trade ports, farms or roads to increase our income and be able to hire proud volunteer Hoplitai of the mighty city of Athenai.
I PROPOSE we besiege and assault Mytilene, having control over the aegean an with more support for new elections.
I PROPOSE we ally and trade with many friendly kingdoms that suport us, of course, presenting ourseleves as athenians, so our treasury will grow thanks to us.
I PROPOSE we make an army greater than the alliance and we go to support our bosphorean, euxinean, and taurikean allies, so that they may resist the onslaught that greedy kings want to bring to them.
I PROPOSE we make a camp in Attike several stadia from the city, so the Ally army may camp there and protect our city, since the spartans are such fierce warriors, we will give them many battles so they are happy with us, and we could give them some levy from Chalkis to support them, uniting the alliance more, of course controllably, so we have the power to stop them if they want to start another peloponesan war.

~Jirisys ()

[Drag0nUL]

I AGREE with jirisys proposals I, III, V and VII.
I somewhat DISAGREE with proposal II. Macedonians are still strong so I believe fleet shouldn't be a priority until we've raised a land army strong enough to oppose them. This also makes proposals IV and VI a low priority for me, since they are not achievable without a fleet (I agree with them in the long run, just I don't feel they should be a priority ATM).

[Walle]

I AGREE with Drag0nUL. I believe that we need a stronger economy and land force before we start building a fleet. Taking control of the sea and Anatolia is not our top priority.

Oh, and one more thing. Jirisys, regarding your sixth proposal, is anyone allowed to control an army larger than the Alliance army of the Strategos Autokrator? If I remember correctly, no one has that power.

[Drag0nUL]

Oh, and one more thing. Jirisys, regarding your sixth proposal, is anyone allowed to control an army larger than the Alliance army of the Strategos Autokrator? If I remember correctly, no one has that power.

From my understanding: the strategos can control up to 20 units, the polemarchos up to 12, and other generals up to 8. I don't think there's anything stopping us from having a 12 units athenian army if the alliance army has let's say 11 units.

[Walle]

From my understanding: the strategos can control up to 20 units, the polemarchos up to 12, and other generals up to 8. I don't think there's anything stopping us from having a 12 units athenian army if the alliance army has let's say 11 units.

Ok thanks. Well in any case, I DISAGREE with Jirisys' proposal to create an army larger than the Alliance army, since I think that would give an image of us Athenians as people who are only seeking glory for ourselves, rather than for the Alliance as a whole, which is what I personally stand for.

Instead, I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army, if possible.

[Octavian I]

I AGREE with Walle.

If we want to rule Greece we will have to work together to a certain degree.

[Vaginacles]

It is right and proper that the people of Euboea govern themselves in the manner that suits both our interest and theirs. A democratic regime is a must for the new chalkisians.

As long term objectives, I agree with all of Jirisy's proposals, however i believe that in the short term, better options are avaliable for us.

FIRST, i PROPOSE that we upgrade our barracks to accomodate larger, and more well equipped hoplites. In our foreign expeditions, we cannot rely on Levy's to engage in complex sieges or tactical maneuvers. It is thus in our best interest, at the expense of the state, to have a standing army of soldiers DRILLED in militart combat.

SECOND, i PROPOSE that we keep what is left of our levies as garrisons, and once we have built the new Barracks, we commission a fleet and set sail for Myilte

THIRD, I DISAGREE with Walle's suggestion of weakening our army for the sake of the alliance. Do not forget that this alliance is temporarly, it exists so long as Hellas is threatened by kings like Pyrrhus or Antonious. Once Eprius and Macedonia is eliminated, we would be in a weak state if we have no strong standing army. We would also be weak if we are seen as unable to provide protection compared to the Spartans, who are now overlords of Corinth and soon to be Demetrias. This is why we need to rebuild our Athenian Empire, as a strong city can remain independant and free, while a weak one must suffer under the boots of a greater. It is IMPERATIVE that we establish a position of equal or greater standings relative to Sparta, so that the spartans would have reason to fear transgressing against Athen's interest.

Let us not forget, that the allied army is LED by sparta, and all the glory that is gained in battle goes to the Spartans. The allied hoplites are merely instruments used by the Spartan King to increase the Prestige of himself and Sparta. Each victory he attains is more proof of Spartan superiority in military matters, we must not allow Sparta to be more powerful then they already are.

[Walle]

It is right and proper that the people of Euboea govern themselves in the manner that suits both our interest and theirs. A democratic regime is a must for the new chalkisians.

As long term objectives, I agree with all of Jirisy's proposals, however i believe that in the short term, better options are avaliable for us.

FIRST, i PROPOSE that we upgrade our barracks to accomodate larger, and more well equipped hoplites. In our foreign expeditions, we cannot rely on Levy's to engage in complex sieges or tactical maneuvers. It is thus in our best interest, at the expense of the state, to have a standing army of soldiers DRILLED in militart combat.

SECOND, i PROPOSE that we keep what is left of our levies as garrisons, and once we have built the new Barracks, we commission a fleet and set sail for Myilte

THIRD, I DISAGREE with Walle's suggestion of weakening our army for the sake of the alliance. Do not forget that this alliance is temporarly, it exists so long as Hellas is threatened by kings like Pyrrhus or Antonious. Once Eprius and Macedonia is eliminated, we would be in a weak state if we have no strong standing army. We would also be weak if we are seen as unable to provide protection compared to the Spartans, who are now overlords of Corinth and soon to be Demetrias. This is why we need to rebuild our Athenian Empire, as a strong city can remain independant and free, while a weak one must suffer under the boots of a greater. It is IMPERATIVE that we establish a position of equal or greater standings relative to Sparta, so that the spartans would have reason to fear transgressing against Athen's interest.

Let us not forget, that the allied army is LED by sparta, and all the glory that is gained in battle goes to the Spartans. The allied hoplites are merely instruments used by the Spartan King to increase the Prestige of himself and Sparta. Each victory he attains is more proof of Spartan superiority in military matters, we must not allow Sparta to be more powerful then they already are.

This alliance is only temporary? I appreciate your enthusiasm for role-playing, but let's stay within the boundaries of the game mechanics. There isn't going to be a Peloponnesian war, and the faction is, and will remain as "Koinon Hellenon" not "Arche Athenai" or whatever. This is an alliance of Greek city-states, and will remain as such.

Regarding the "glory" thing. Yes, the Alliance army is lead by a Spartan, for the moment. Perhaps in the next elections an Athenian will be elected Strategos Autokrator, and then we will get our glory. But the most important thing isn't necessarily the leader. The soldiers also get a portion of the glory of battle, and if Athenians are included in the Alliance army, Athens will also get a portion of said glory. However, glory isn't the most important thing. The vital thing, which I believe should be our top priority at any time, is the survival of the Alliance, and I believe that strengthening the Alliance army with Athenians will support that cause.

[Vaginacles]

As much as i enjoyed reading your OOC critique, i think it would be best if you critiqued it IC so that we can establish a war party and a peace party dialogue going on. Of course i know we can't dissolve the KH, but nevertheless we should approach this AAR in the manner in which Athens would have behaved. I am pretty much going on Thucydide's peloponnesian war as a model on how Athen's would have reacted.

Besides, what fun is it if all we did was help the alliance win?

IC: Individual men receives individual glory, but glory to the state is given by the leader of the expedition. Our victory at Pylos and Potidaea during the Second Peloponnesian war was Athenian, even though many of our hoplites and peltest were of allied or thracian origin. It is also clear that the Spartans have made no request for AID, so why should we sacrifice our security for help that they do not need? It is in our best interest to consolidate our recent conquest of Euboea and build up our army so it is capable of defending our homeland, Then we can travel to Myile and liberate them from the macedonian yoke.

[Walle]

Fair enough . I still wish to see the Alliance succeed as an alliance though, instead of a fight for individual power. But that's just me, I guess I'm just a sucker for cooperation

[Vaginacles]

I love conflict too much to see a cooperative lovefest between athens and sparta :)

[Walle]

Alright then, we'll just have to see were this alliance ends up. Disagreements and different points of view in military matters have always led to interesting results.

[jirisys]

Ok thanks. Well in any case, I DISAGREE with Jirisys' proposal to create an army larger than the Alliance army, since I think that would give an image of us Athenians as people who are only seeking glory for ourselves, rather than for the Alliance as a whole, which is what I personally stand for.

Instead, I PROPOSE that we reinforce the Alliance army, if possible.

No, It's so we can defend ourselves without the need of the ally army and have military autonomy to campaign in, either the pontos euxinos, or makedonia. We will support it, but we need to be able to mantain ourseleves without the need for someone else, that would make the spartans think we're weak, and install even more of their proposals without our support and coerce us, we must not let our guard down, I don't want the alliance to fail or to subjugate sparta either...

~Jirisys ()

[Walle]

No, It's so we can defend ourselves without the need of the ally army and have military autonomy to campaign in, either the pontos euxinos, or makedonia. We will support it, but we need to be able to mantain ourseleves without the need for someone else, that would make the spartans think we're weak, and install even more of their proposals without our support and coerce us, we must not let our guard down, I don't want the alliance to fail and we subjugate sparta either...

~Jirisys ()

I agree, we do need some military of our own to defend ourselves with, just not necessarily anything larger than the Alliance army, that is, after all, the "main army" so to speak. I do still personally care more about the campaign of the Alliance army though, then our own potential campaign somewhere else, around Pontus euxinus for example. In conclusion, I still hold reinforcing the Alliance army as a top priority, after we create some kind of military force so we can defend ourselves to some degree of course.

[jirisys]

I agree, we do need some military of our own to defend ourselves with, just not necessarily anything larger than the Alliance army, that is, after all, the "main army" so to speak. I do still personally care more about the campaign of the Alliance army though, then our own potential campaign somewhere else, around Pontus euxinus for example. In conclusion, I still hold reinforcing the Alliance army as a top priority, after we create some kind of military force so we can defend ourselves to some degree of course.

We don't need to have just one army, we can spread it around in the pontos or makedonia, we should build a big enough force to campaign in the euxinos, but still have good protection and attacking forces in mainland hellas, We should attack demetrias if the spartans take Thermon, so they don't go around spreading their tyranneia, we must go and spread the enlightened word of Platon, Aristoteles, Clistenes, etc... So our influence grows higher, but helping our hellenic allies on the pontos is priority.

~Jirisys ()