Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Paltmull]

Therefore, I PROPOSE that we raise a new fleet preferably a fleet of Trireme in order to nullify this problem."

I AGREE.

If Doros is to go through that Spartan agoge, we'd better recruit ships and get him there ASAP. When i suggested that he'd go to Sparta in the end of his 19th year, I had no idea that he would be sent off to Krete.

And since Mytilene is likely to declare it's independence if Pella falls, I also PROPOSE that the next city we conquer is Pella, and not Mytilene.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"I will keep this short and to the point. I DISAGREE with the proposal that a democratic Kleroucheia be established in Kretai, for the reasons put forth by Leumenes. It follows, then, that I AGREE with Leumenes' proposal to put in place a Tyrannos there.

I do AGREE with Arthourus that a new fleet, preferably of trireme, be raised.

I vehemently DISAGREE with the proposal that we attack Pella. This war with Macedonia was not sought by us. Are we to transit from one bloody war of attrition to another without pause. Taking Pella will put us, almost inevitably, on a war footing with Epiros, as well as in line of sight of the barbarian Getai tribes. Let the Macedonians at Pella bear the brunt of that aggression, and we can pick up the pieces when we are ready. Our fortifications and garrisons in Thessaly are sufficient to hold the Macedons in check. Let us hold them there, as a sponge, to soak up the urge for war within the barbarian hearts of the Epirotes and the Getai.

I PROPOSE that we be prepared to take Mytilene and then Pergamon from the Macedonians when, and it is a matter of time, they take Pergamon. They will leave a weakened garrison in Mytilene, and their exertions in taking Pergamon will weaken their main force.

We have experience, with Demetrias and in Kretai, of how costly taking a garrisoned town can be. Let others pay that price, let us take the rewards.

Also, we need the income from the trade that Mytilene and Pergamon will bring us. And it will weaken the Macedonian position further. Hold them in Pella.

For the same reasons I believe we should, in whatever way we can, implore the Spartan council to desist from any hostile moves toward Thermon, for now."

[The_Blacksmith]

"How can we praise our selfs as being the light of civilization when we support tyrannos' in krete?!?!" Kaleros yelled across the council

"And taking Lesbos now? with a Makedonian army the size of the Allied and the Spartan army combined? you must be mad, risking everything; the controll of Thessaly, it will say allmost open! its the gateway to Attike, for what to gain? another front; with the Arche Seleukia?! i STRONGLY DISAGREE its a tactical failure!"

"you even wants to attack over sea... with pirates lurking everywhere?!" Kaleros was now almost red in his face, his passion for tactics and... the lives of his friends became.... very apparent...

[jirisys]

"How can we praise our selfs as being the light of civilization when we support tyrannos' in krete?!?!" Kaleros yelled across the council

"And taking Lesbos now? with a Makedonian army the size of the Allied and the Spartan army combined? you must be mad, risking everything; the controll of Thessaly, it will say allmost open! its the gateway to Attike, for what to gain? another front; with the Arche Seleukia?! i STRONGLY DISAGREE its a tactical failure!"

"you even wants to attack over sea... with pirates lurking everywhere?!" Kaleros was now almost red in his face, his passion for tactics and... the lives of his friends became.... very apparent...

Leumenes, shocked at his reprehensal, stood up calmly.

"Us, my dear friend, we must not let our own ideals affect those of Kretai people, if they had a Tyrannos, and, however unsopportive with the Koinon, he gathered many hundreds of men. We have to give the polis their own choice, not to affect them by ours, too much have we done by conquering them, forcing them to support us, at least we should make them have what they so wish, a Tyrannos was supported in Kretai, I believe there would be some unrest with a new type of government when they didn't care for it. Yes, we must be happy when a polis accepts democracy as their government, yet, we must also rejoice, that the polis is given what their people ask, even if that's a Tyrannos or an Allied basileos.

On the note of taking Lesbos. I admit it would be risky, yet we should ask the spartans to support us with the Allied army, so we may flank the island from both sides. Of course we must risk something, but we must be certain that we can win, lifes will be lost, more than enough. However we cannot let the Makedonians control an island in our seas, imagine the pirate raids, the blockades and the invasions to cities, besides, the Kingdom of Pergamon is an old ally, we must not let it fall to Makedonian sword, I do not believe the Arche Seleukeia to attack an island so far from the coast. We must press the makedonians, we must deplete them; if possible, defeat them in-detail: First the army outside when it's besieging the city and then we besiege the city. Many tactics may work, but we need support and men.

Of course a pirate sweep must be taken into measure, building a fleet of powerful navies would grant us supremacy over their silly boats, also, they are a threat to our trade, what Rhodos basically lives upon, sea trade. We must not let them down because of fear, we must attack, yes, but we must think of clever ways to do so. We will not act reckless, do not worry."

Leumenes sat down.

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

It should be possible to quickly cross from Chalkis to Lesbos, avoiding pirate ships.

The Alliance Army under the Spartans seems to have other plans, going for Pella instead of Lesbos, and are unlikely to recieve orders ("suggestions") from the Athenian council.

The Athenian Army would likely be alone in such endeavor.

It should also be noted that either Chremonides or Doros may command the Athenian army in such an attack. Chremonides's army would have 8 units, while Doros's would have 12, but Chremonides is a more experienced commander. The Athenian Council must decide which man will lead.

[jirisys]

It should be possible to quickly cross from Chalkis to Lesbos, avoiding pirate ships.

The Alliance Army under the Spartans seems to have other plans, going for Pella instead of Lesbos, and are unlikely to recieve orders ("suggestions") from the Athenian council.

The Athenian Army would likely be alone in such endeavor.

It should also be noted that either Chremonides or Doros may command the Athenian army in such an attack. Chremonides's army would have 8 units, while Doros's would have 12, but Chremonides is a more experienced commander. The Athenian Council must decide which man will lead.

That's why we should have a Boule for both factions' Prytaneis... Don't you think?

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

That's why we should have a Boule for both factions' Prytaneis... Don't you think?

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

~Jirisys ()

No.

It is strictly against the rules for the Athenian Council to give orders to the Alliance Army without holding the office of Strategos, or to give orders to the Spartan Army at any time. This is in the law.

I will go extremely OOC in this post. My posts are usually neutral in a limbo between IC and OOC.

It makes absolutely no sense in creating a council for the Party Leaders (Prytaneis are the Athenian Party Leaders, the Spartan ones are the Ephoroi) for a number of reasons:

1) Where would this be created? The TWC or the .org? I can't force people from a forum to register in another one and vice-versa. Not everybody is registered in both forums.

2) It is extremely ahistorical. The Koinon isn't a nation. Where is the Koinon? In which city would this Council be located? The citizens of a polis respond to their polis and to nothing else. It just makes no sense at all to have a "non-polis" council. We already have the Koinon Session which is when the councilors of Sparta and Athens may dialogue between each other.

3) It would defeat the entire purpose of this AAR, which is having two councils in conflict with each other. This division is one of the main reasons this AAR has been fun so far.

4) I see no point for only 7 players to decide what will be done in this AAR, instead of ALL players as it is now.

5) The Koinon matters are COMPLETELY COVERED with the current system. The polis that controls the office of Hegemon controls construction and recruitment with priority throughout all the cities, while the Strategos controls military through the Alliance Army. There is no need for another council. What would it decide? Tax levels? There's nothing else to be done that isn't covered in the current system.

6) If I wanted a huge super-stack of doom to blitz the stupid AI, I'd play single player and not write an AAR. You should try that if that's your thing.

Even if this was passed as law in a Koinon Session, which is when it should be proposed rather than in the middle of a Polis Session such as the one we are in right now, I'd 100% veto it with my powers of creator of this AAR, which are higher than the laws in the first post, because I believe such a thing would make this AAR less fun. There is no argument to be made in this matter.

And believe me, all my efforts here go into making this AAR fun for everyone, or at least for as many people as possible.

Sorry for the huge rant, guys. I've addressed this before and it apparently went unnoticed. This is my final word on the creation of a third and "exclusive for only a few people" council. I don't even know why I should have to write such a huge argument on this, this is as clear as day to me.

Why not both? So we have a fullstack on the attack without breaking the rules?

Chremonides's command would override Doros's because of the number of stars of the generals. You can't have Chremonides command 12 units, only 8. You won't have a full stack either way, only either 12 or 8 units.