Public Sector Union Beatdown Bloodbath Legismania 2011 Wisconsin-style

[drone]

Why? I thought in America everyone has the ability to lobby their representatives?

Why should Lemur's tax dollars favor one party over another?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why should Lemur's tax dollars favor one party over another?

Because they are not tax dollars? They are union dues. The union collects them because you signed a contract with them to join. They are now the union's to spend. If they feel one party works for unions more than the other, than they are doing their job.

[drone]

Because they are not tax dollars? They are union dues. The union collects them because you signed a contract with them to join. They are now the union's to spend. If they feel one party works for unions more than the other, than they are doing their job.

I think you are missing my point. Lemur is not a teacher (to the best of my knowledge). He is not a member of the union. Teachers are paid in local and state tax dollars. Teachers salaries are docked union dues, hence the union gets Lemur's tax dollars. Union dues go to support candidates of the Democrat persuasion. Maybe Lemur does not like the Democrat candidate in his district, or other districts for that matter. Tough luck, he supports them anyway because his tax dollars go to them through teacher union dues. Lemur may or may not mind this arrangement, I'm sure Vuk is not happy about it at all.

What the UAW does with it's dues is between it and it's members. What teachers (and other public sector) unions do with their dues needs to be controlled, since these dues are public funds.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think you are missing my point. Lemur is not a teacher (to the best of my knowledge). He is not a member of the union. Teachers are paid in local and state tax dollars. Teachers salaries are docked union dues, hence the union gets Lemur's tax dollars. Union dues go to support candidates of the Democrat persuasion. Maybe Lemur does not like the Democrat candidate in his district, or other districts for that matter. Tough luck, he supports them anyway because his tax dollars go to them through teacher union dues. Lemur may or may not mind this arrangement, I'm sure Vuk is not happy about it at all.

What the UAW does with it's dues is between it and it's members. What teachers (and other public sector) unions do with their dues needs to be controlled, since these dues are public funds.

If you think that by the end of that chain of events that the money is still yours, there is a problem.

I paid X company to provide me with services. They took some of that money and paid their unionized workers. The unionized workers pay for their unions with union dues from their salary. Companies are spending my tax dollars on candidates I don't want.

None of what you said makes sense. The money is now the government's to spend at the discretion of the public wants. The public wants teachers. Government pays teachers. it is now the teacher's money he/she worked for. The teacher wants a union, teacher pays for a union. Somehow you now make the connection that paying taxes=supporting democratic candidates because of this long chain of events that serve only to highlight the life of a dollar. Your argument is completely false.

[drone]

The teacher wants a union, teacher pays for a union.

Since Wisconsin is not a right to work state, the teacher has no choice, the teacher pays for the union whether they want it or not. This is what make that chain of events a valid argument.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Since Wisconsin is not a right to work state, the teacher has no choice, the teacher pays for the union whether they want it or not. This is what make that chain of events a valid argument.

What Sasaki said.

[PanzerJaeger]

The backlash threatens to undercut one of the Democratic Party’s most stalwart backers — and upset a mutually beneficial relationship where the unions provided financial support and foot soldiers for Democratic campaigns, in return for political cover to protect their prerogatives in the U.S. Congress and state capitols across the nation.

The National Education Association, the largest teachers union, spent $40 million on the 2010 elections alone, making the union one of the largest outside funders of Democratic campaigns.

Obama’s education secretary Arne Duncan sounded surprisingly like the Republican governors when he told teachers unions and administrators at a conference Tuesday in Denver, “Clearly, the status quo isn’t working for children.”

What’s remarkable now, however, is how closely some of the Republicans’ complaints mirror those of the Obama administration, whose Race to the Top education initiative includes programs that have long been anathema to the unions, such as merit pay for teachers and giving districts the ability to fire bad teachers.

Obama and Duncan have made clear that their vision for the country’s teachers includes getting tougher on them. “It is time to start rewarding good teachers and stop making excuses for bad ones,” the president said shortly after taking office.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1EISdbh1O

This is a critical point in American history. We can either bow to the unions, or take our fiscal future back. The GOP and the Obama Administration must work together to destroy the union stranglehold on America's children.

I hope Scott Walker breaks these corrupt unions and sends those throngs of leeches skulking around the capitol instead of working a message. This isn’t France and they need to learn their place.

They are state employees and if the state cannot afford their sweetheart benefits, they don't get to threaten the state's children's education. If they believe they are getting such a bad deal, they can give 30 days notice and try and find a better one in the private sector. Good luck to them on that. The sick outs are pathetic, childish, and a clear demonstration that this has nothing to do with the children.

Those Democratic state senators should be thrown in jail as well.

I've seen a lot of human interest non-stories about these people's ‘suffering’, but I have yet to hear a reporter ask them where they think the money is going to come from to fund their pensions. I suppose they expect the state to raise taxes on everyone else who actually has to save for retirement.

Is Pinkerton Security still around... or some of Mubarak's camel warriors?

'You will contribute a modest percentage of your healthcare and pension costs, or we will run you over with camels and then beat the hell out of you.'

Yes.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

It's a problem when politicians can grant money to unions and get the money right back in campaign donations. It's a conflict of interest. Much like when they can give tax breaks to businesses and then get money in campaign donations. But is the problem that politicians can raise teacher salaries and give tax breaks, or is it a campaign finance problem?

[Lemur]

The public perception of police and firefighters is that they face dangers hardly anyone else does. That they sacrifice a lot for modest wages. So when the governor doesn't go after their unions he doesn't appear stingy with 'heroes', and by comparison he appears more reasonable when he tries to cut the other unions.

So there is no rationale, just a set of political tactics. This is insane. Either Governor Walker is serious about moderating the power of the public sector unions or he is not. To exclude two of the most expensive groups of public employees with no rationale or logic is insane, and forces me to wonder what on earth he is doing. It clearly ain't reform.

You accuse me of sexism while generalizing all teachers as women, and all police as men?

You assume I don't want police unions busted up simply because I offered a reason why they weren't included?

But why bother about all that when you can accuse me of sexism?

Your initial reply was, in fact, thoughtless, and your follow-up contained some short-stop political positioning and a predictable "How dare you call me sexist, you sexist!" Please. The vast majority of elementary-grade and high-school-grade teachers are female. The vast majority of police and firefighters are male. I would like to be able to observe this, and even speculate on the possible role of male/female stereotypes and prejudices, without being howled down by the typical counterpunch of "How dare you call me a racist for burning a cross? You're the racist for thinking a burning cross is racist, you racist!"

I would really like to hear if any rightwing Orgah can offer a cogent, reasoned rationale for excluding two major groups from the union-busting. It makes no sense.

Lemur Lemur Lemur Lemur Vuk

Surreal.

This is a critical point in American history. We can either bow to the unions, or take our fiscal future back.

Then, if this is a "critical point in American history," please explain to me why the police union and firefighter's union aren't on the table. Somebody, please, at least make something up and pretend you're serious.

-edit-

Okay, this just gets stranger. The nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau released a budget estimate showing that Wisconsin was on track for a $121.4 million surplus this year, but Governor Walker claims we're on track for a $137 million deficit. Linky. That's more than a quarter-billion accounting disagreement, and demands explanation.

Furthermore, according to one group our new Governor has doled out $140 million in special tax breaks. Not sure if I believe this, but it bears examination:

• $25 million for an economic development fund for job creation that still has $73 million due to a lack of job creation. Walker is creating a $25 million hole which will not create or retain jobs.
• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.
• $67 million for a tax shift plan, so ill-conceived that at best the benefit provided to ‘job creators’ would be less than a dollar a day per new job, and may be as little as 30 cents a day.”

[ICantSpellDawg]

Lemur, I am dead serious. Public pay is going to be slashed. First support, then teachers, then Police, then the Military - in that order. Every agency can do more with less. Technology should be making the same crap levels of education cheaper per child, not more expensive. We are being hosed in every direction and Americans are starting to realize it. Khan Academy has helped me learn and retain more mathematical knowledge than any and all of my math teachers combined; all for the high price of a computer and the internet. 1 man, 2000 videos, public domain content and a great interface vs the insane cost of employing crap teachers around the country. The need for their jobs is coming to an end and they are screaming over a 4% pay cut. IMO, this reaction is sharpening the swords of the masses.

The future of the United States is deflation of income and inflation in technology. I believe that we are going to come to a point where peoples salaries stagnate or even go down year after year with exponential growth in technology being responsible for an overall increase in the standard of living. Get on board. If you realise that traditional growth was mostly illusory on the domestic level; salary increases being outpaced by inflation and based more on our increased in lving standards in relation to the rest of the world; then you can see how a growing and driven international standard of living will reduce or value in relation to it. I'm ok with it. One day, none of us will have anything to do because robots will be doing all of it for us. We will be volunteering for all of the jobs that we do now for crazy fees. SINGULARITY IS THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE END OF TIMES AND HEAVEN ON EARTH BRINGING THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE... did I lose you? Stay with me.

[Lemur]

I'll be honest here, I'm not very pro-union. I think a lot of what unions were instituted to fix has now been addressed in labor law. That said, I'm not terribly anti-union either.

Looks to me like a good argument can be made against public-sector unions. However, the way our Governor is going about it strikes me as ... ill-planned. Let's bust the teachers first? Really? And leave the police out and supposedly get around to them later? I don't believe it, not for a moment. Much more likely: Walker will succeed in busting the teacher's union, and then this whole "reform" process will grind to a halt. Net result: To hell with the teachers, but you, Mister Policeman, can have health care and a pension for the rest of you natural life. Thanks for voting Republican!

If I thought there were a realistic prospect of reform, I'd be much more generously inclined toward this experiment. But leaving the police and firefighters off the table turns it into a sexist little voyage of political payback.

-edit-

Okay, after your 10:05 edit your post became really epic. Respect!

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'll be honest here, I'm not very pro-union. I think a lot of what unions were instituted to fix has now been addressed in labor law. That said, I'm not terribly anti-union either.

Looks to me like a good argument can be made against public-sector unions. However, the way our Governor is going about it strikes me as ... ill-planned. Let's bust the teachers first? Really? And leave the police out and supposedly get around to them later? I don't believe it, not for a moment. Much more likely: Walker will succeed in busting the teacher's union, and then this whole "reform" process will grind to a halt. Net result: To hell with the teachers, but you, Mister Policeman, can have health care and a pension for the rest of you natural life. Thanks for voting Republican!

If I thought there were a realistic prospect of reform, I'd be much more generously inclined toward this experiment. But leaving the police and firefighters off the table turns it into a sexist little voyage of political payback.

-edit-

Okay, after your 10:05 edit your post became really epic. Respect!

Ha! I think I may have convinced my father that I was insane when I started talking about Singularity. I read an article in Time magazine and a few more in the Economist and I'm sold.

[Ironside]

The future of the United States is deflation of income and inflation in technology. I believe that we are going to come to a point where peoples salaries stagnate or even go down year after year with exponential growth in technology being responsible for an overall increase in the standard of living. Get on board. If you realise that traditional growth was mostly illusory on the domestic level; salary increases being outpaced by inflation and based more on our increased in lving standards in relation to the rest of the world; then you can see how a growing and driven international standard of living will reduce or value in relation to it. I'm ok with it. One day, none of us will have anything to do because robots will be doing all of it for us. We will be volunteering for all of the jobs that we do now for crazy fees.

So... Which political system do you consider can handle this change?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Which political systems today existed 100 years ago? Not too many. Times change and political systems arise as a result of them. The U.S. government in 2010 is not the U.S. government in 1911. Our current monetary system is merely a carrot and stick encouraging labor and morale. What happens when we no longer need human labor and it can be done better by our developed automations? What will we need the current monetary system for? It will have to change. What if home prices and entertainment fell at the same time as our income did? Would we need raises if the fall in cost of living fell? It has always risen, but it doesn't have to forever.

I see home prices around the country continue to decline. Wages are declining. And yet, life is getting better. Investments can be made abroad for growth, but the vast majority of us will see a slide forever until we meet the rest of the world. It will feel like a fall merely because of our monetary system, but if standards of living for everyone have increased, it would be foolish to consider it a real "decline".

gut the opposition to our decline. speed up the process.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Lemur, I am dead serious. Public pay is going to be slashed. First support, then teachers, then Police, then the Military - in that order. Every agency can do more with less. Technology should be making the same crap levels of education cheaper per child, not more expensive. We are being hosed in every direction and Americans are starting to realize it. Khan Academy has helped me learn and retain more mathematical knowledge than any and all of my math teachers combined; all for the high price of a computer and the internet. 1 man, 2000 videos, public domain content and a great interface vs the insane cost of employing crap teachers around the country. The need for their jobs is coming to an end and they are screaming over a 4% pay cut. IMO, this reaction is sharpening the swords of the masses.

The future of the United States is deflation of income and inflation in technology. I believe that we are going to come to a point where peoples salaries stagnate or even go down year after year with exponential growth in technology being responsible for an overall increase in the standard of living. Get on board. If you realise that traditional growth was mostly illusory on the domestic level; salary increases being outpaced by inflation and based more on our increased in lving standards in relation to the rest of the world; then you can see how a growing and driven international standard of living will reduce or value in relation to it. I'm ok with it. One day, none of us will have anything to do because robots will be doing all of it for us. We will be volunteering for all of the jobs that we do now for crazy fees. SINGULARITY IS THE CHRISTIAN VIEW OF THE END OF TIMES AND HEAVEN ON EARTH BRINGING THE DEAD BACK TO LIFE... did I lose you? Stay with me.

I would just like to correct you on one thing.

Teaching can not be completely transferred over to technology. I get to listen in on a few committees as a student representative at my uni and all the professors in the committee I attend agreed that technology can only go so far to replace the human interaction that some people need. Kahn Academy is just absolutely fantastic, no doubt about that. But Kahn Academy is inherently restricted to what you can get out of a video (it doesn't change the explanation to a more simplistic view every time you watch the video as a teacher would if you were still confused about some concepts). MITOpenSource and Kahn Academy I think will allow those that are already motivated and/or interested and/or smart enough to go be able to gain this information on their own and further their education through technology. However, the demand for physical teacher-student interactions will never be replaced because the average student needs to ask questions, needs things clarified once if not multiple times. Technology should not be treated with the same philosophy that created No Child Left Behind. NCLB is a complete failure because it treats all students on an equal level, which even if you disregard the socioeconomic factors, anyone can tell you that not all brains are created equal. Just a fact of life. To treat technology as the same singular solution that will wash over all of education and make everything better is false as well.

That being said, the concept that in the future people will be volunteering to do things because things that "need" to be done will be done by robots is still applicable here. In this singularity future you have brought up, those that still require human interaction with teachers will be able to find those who have a passion for teaching, which is why many teachers are in it to begin with.

[ICantSpellDawg]

That being said, the concept that in the future people will be volunteering to do things because things that "need" to be done will be done by robots is still applicable here. In this singularity future you have brought up, those that still require human interaction with teachers will be able to find those who have a passion for teaching, which is why many teachers are in it to begin with.

Have you been to Khan Academy lately? Go there, create a profile and learn all of the math you've missed. I think the new math path is the future of scientific and mathematical education at the elementary and high school levels. It effectively makes teachers redundant. Get a room full of 50-100 kids with some low paid minders to make sure that they are doing their work and you will save a bundle.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Kahn Academy is just absolutely fantastic, no doubt about that. But Kahn Academy is inherently restricted to what you can get out of a video (it doesn't change the explanation to a more simplistic view every time you watch the video as a teacher would if you were still confused about some concepts). MITOpenSource and Kahn Academy I think will allow those that are already motivated and/or interested and/or smart enough to go be able to gain this information on their own and further their education through technology. However, the demand for physical teacher-student interactions will never be replaced because the average student needs to ask questions, needs things clarified once if not multiple times. Technology should not be treated with the same philosophy that created No Child Left Behind. NCLB is a complete failure because it treats all students on an equal level, which even if you disregard the socioeconomic factors, anyone can tell you that not all brains are created equal. Just a fact of life. To treat technology as the same singular solution that will wash over all of education and make everything better is false as well.

That being said, the concept that in the future people will be volunteering to do things because things that "need" to be done will be done by robots is still applicable here. In this singularity future you have brought up, those that still require human interaction with teachers will be able to find those who have a passion for teaching, which is why many teachers are in it to begin with.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1728471/c...rupt-education

How would he change education? By turning it upside down. First, he says, we should “decouple credentialing from learning.” Instead of handing out degrees, standardized assessments would be the measure of employee competence. Anyone could learn at their own pace in their own way: in an internship, as an entrepreneur, or at home on the Internet. Then, everyone, no matter how they were educated, would be equal before the evaluation. Additionally, he thinks the assessment could be more meaningful than whatever abilities a college degree actual signals to employers.

Second, lectures would become homework and teacher tutoring would occur during class time. In traditional classrooms “despite the fact that you 30 humans in the room, it’s a very unhuman experience.” Some of Khan's devoted following of teachers are already substituting his lectures for their own, and assigning the videos as homework. It saves them time and allows more personalized education during school hours.

I think we may be on to something...