Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[jirisys]

Done

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

Done

~Jirisys ()

Done as well. Unfortunately, I cannot view it myself because Norton blocks imageshack. What a shame.

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Behold your Epistates! :

Athenians, let me know if you want to start a war with Pontos. Currently I would rather we didn't and expect that to be the sentiment of the rest of our council.

Yes we shall refrain from going to war against Pontos. For now...

I would think that a third war would be a very bad thing for us right now. Let's finish off Epeiros and see what the Getai do. As such:
I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.
I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.
I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.

1. DISAGREE - (See my Proposal below)

2. Neutral

3. AGREE


I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.


@Molinaargh, How many turns are left till the barracks in Athenai are completed?

Oh and could you edit the my law thingy in the OP (here and at TWC) I made a few typos I think:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the expansion Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shalll not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Change into this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Without the bolded text of course, Thanks in advance.

[Molinaargh]

@Molinaargh, How many turns are left till the barracks in Athenai are completed?

Oh and could you edit the my law thingy in the OP (here an at TWC) I made a few typos I think

Done. The barracks will take another 4 seasons.

[jirisys]

Behold your Epistates! :

Arthouros Attkos? lol, I will change mine to Leumenes!

~Jirisys ()

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Done. The barracks will take another 4 seasons.

Arthouros Attkos? lol, I will change mine to Leumenes!

~Jirisys ()

And I willl change mine to Attikos...

[Populus Romanus]

And I willl change mine to Attikos...

How did you get that smilie? It is only on TWCenter. Arthuoros is adopting Spartan Culture!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Well it's also on my photobucket account.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Found it here first though: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/mem...miley-1166.gif

[Greenlizard0.]

Behold your Epistates! :

1. DISAGREE - (See my Proposal below)

2. Neutral

3. AGREE


I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.

I agree with the proposal of Arthourous.

Edit:

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.

Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.

Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.

The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!



Sparte Nationalist Party sponsors: Appius



Lacedaemonian Unionist sponsors: Demothenes



Please do not say "I agree" or "I disagree" yet. This Act is a work in progress, and I will be continuously refining it for the next four years. Please instead explain what you like about this Act and what you dislike about it, so that your voice may be heard.

Arthouros who now held the high honour of serving his second term as Epistates ton Athenai arrived at the assembly early. Early enough to hear the Spartiatai law proposal that was actually rather extensive. When the Spartiates - or was he a Rhômaioi, Arthouros couldn't quite tell, had left the podium, Arthouros began addressing his law proposal:

"How marvellous, another law proposal I wholeheartedly... Wait what is this:

Arthouros the Divider looks so souless and evil with no pupils. However, as always Molinaargh Zeus Pater is highly accurate, for I have seen Arthuoros in person myself and can testify to the accuracy of that feature.

Spartan! How dare you insult my handsomeness and the vigour of my soul!? Just for that I shall DISAGREE with your puny law proposal, and as I Arthouros Attikos The Divider am Epistates my DISAGREE counts as two. Try getting this to pass now! Hah!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC
Okay, real reason to why I disagree is that I don't see how this is necessary, and I believe that restriction over our finances is un-constitutional. Plus I just don't like the idea of restricting our spendings.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Biowulf:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.

2. I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.

3. I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

2. Result: Pending

3. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

2. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

3. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

4. I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.

1. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

2. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

3. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull

4. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull




Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.

Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.

Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.

The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!

DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

[Molinaargh]

Spartan! How dare you insult my handsomeness and the vigour of my soul!? Just for that I shall DISAGREE with your puny law proposal, and as I Arthouros Attikos The Divider am Epistates my DISAGREE counts as two. Try getting this to pass now! Hah!

I know this is a joke, but the position of Epistates is an Athenian one, not a Koinon one. So the "counts as two" only works for polis sessions, not the Koinon session. Just figured I'd clear that up. And it's a shady rule anyway!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Okay.




~Arthouros

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"Arthouros, how glad I am that a man of such standing has been blessed by the Gods once more and represents this council as Epistates for another term. I feel that, by this, we have all been blessed. Fitting, too, that your name be given to the first statute of our great Koinon, and it is a fine tribute to your tireless work for Athens and for Hellas is that that momentous occasion cannot be taken from you. As for the bust in your honour...well, I suppose flattery is appreciated for such a long-lived record, there are certainly fewer lines upon that face than upon your own. Not that I have any room to talk, it has been a rough and at times desperate time for our generation.

I DISAGREE with the proposal that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army (Biowulf 1) as I prefer and AGREE with your own suggestion; that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there (Arthouros 1). I AGREE that we should send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai (Biowulf 3). I DISAGREE with the proposal that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. Whether or not it be only a few hundred, they are our mnai, earned by our people, by Hellenes. I do not wish to get carried away with the Koinon's success but... I believe that we are strong enough that we need not buy peace with barbarian neighbours. If they choose war then that shall be their end. We defeated the Makedonians. We did not cower behind gifts of gold in the face of their threat, why should we, then, cower before illiterate hordes whom could not dent Makedonian suzerainty?

I AGREE with Arthouros' other proposals.

As for Appius Claudius' proposed law... I think it has merit, and I am glad that it has been raised so early as we have time to fine-tune it's details. We must have fairness and accountability throughout the Koinon, and such must be seen as such. Forward Hellenes. Let us make the world a better place, let us civilise it......as only we Hellenes can"

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios Pergamios, a rich athenian citizen of pergamese birth, takes the stand. (consider this me joining the AAR)

I strongly agree with the first part Arthouros' first proposal of sending a relief force, led by Doros, to Pergamon. However, I disagree with the second part, shipping our beloved general Doros across the Aegaeum Mare every time the foul seleukid dogs reaches for the riches of Pergamon. The Seleukids must pay for their outrageous attack on Pergamon, and thus:

I propose that as soon as the siege of Pergamon is lifted, that the athenian host under the command of General Doros lay siege and sack Sardis in retaliation.