Koinon Hellenon: Athens X Sparta (.org X TWCenter), a participative AAR - Athenai

[Molinaargh]

@Molinaarg: In the Gerousia, do Ephoroi votes count as two, then?

No, there is no equivalent to the Epistates in Sparte. The position of Ephor (Sparte) is equivalent to the position of Prytanis (Athens), who are the Party Leaders.

Marble bust of Appius, the Spartan-Roman Ephor of the Sparte Nationalist Party and loyal councilor of the Spartan Gerousia.
(digital painting based on a bust of Agrippa)

I'll be making more of these of other Spartans and Athenians when I have time. It's good to have a purpose for drawing something.

I have added a "Koinon Pantheion" (Hall of Fame) section to the end of the first post, where I'll be putting these. Great contributors will enter the hall of fame!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Nice one, though of course I as an Athenian is by default prettier, more effeminate handsomer and more manly.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Biowulf:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I Propose that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army. It is better to fight when fresh than when starving.

2. I Propose that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. A few hundred every season should be enough.

3. I Propose we send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help.

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Demosthenes

2. DISAGREE Demosthenes

3. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Demosthenes


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. As soon as the siege is lifted/the Seleucid threat somewhat neutralized, he shall return to Athenai and to his post as Eponymos Archon, and leave a portion of his forces at Pergamon as reinforcement.

2. I PROPOSE that we expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further.

3. I PROPOSE that we build better barracks in Kydonia.

4. I PROPOSE that we in Athenai recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited.

1. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes PARTIALLY AGREE Rhobrios Pergamios (Jaertecken) (See his proposal for details)

2. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes

3. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes

4. AGREE Greenlizard, Paltmull, Demosthenes



Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act

As of late, Men of the Koinon Hellenon, it has come to my attention that we do not have any official managment of the Koinon Hellenon's Treasury. Both Athenai and Sparte are both able to spend freely, with no regard for the finances of the other. Even recently we have suffered here at Sparte from being unable to construct a new barracks, due to our general poverty. Our spending is out of control, men of the Koinon!



I PROPOSE that both the Boule and the Gerousia have certain spending caps placed on them. They should be forbidden to spend over a certain limit. Each polis will be given an allowance each year: 45% of the budget to one polis and 45% to the other, with the extra 10% being granted to the polis with the current Hegemon. Note that the budget is only for incoming profits that year, you may not touch the Koinon Hellenon Reserve, which is the money we have already. A polis should never spend over their allocated amount, for overspending will eat into the other's budget. Overspending may be tolerated for a year or two, but any more and the civil war meter will go up! In order to make up for financial irresponsibility, the offending polis would have to severely cut their spending for a period of several years to bring the civil war meter back down. Any leftovers from the year go into the Koinon Hellenon Reserve. The Reserve is considered untouchable except in times of national crisis. In order for this plan to practicable, we would need an annual finacial report from the Great Voice In The Sky (Molina). The annual budget of each Polis will be estimated using the total profits from the previous year. For any expenitures that cost more than allocated budget of that polis for the year, these shall be called "Extraordinary Purchases", and must be approved by both Councils.



Demosthenes Amendments:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Amendment I.

Each polis must be guided in it's spending of money. These guidelines are separated into three sections: Border Polis, Military Polis, Non-Border or Military Polis. These sections are explained and must be followed in Amendment II.



Amendment II.

Border Polis:

-Garrison recruitment

-Cultural Upgrade Buildings

Military Polis:

-Strong Military Force recruitment

-Barracks Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrade Building

Non Border or Military Polis:

-Trade Upgrade Building

-Port Upgrading

-Cultural Upgrading



Amendment III.

Any policies listed in Amendment II can be changed by discussion of the parties and a vote.

Appius Amendment. (In addressment of Diomede's concerns)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Every time the Koinon Reserve exceeds 40000 mnai, we shall have a Major Expenditure Year, where vast amounts of money are to poured into the relatively undrdeveloped neutral cities, who have no Founding Polis to sponsor their development.

Alexandros of Sparta Amendment.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the event of open war, the money will be spent on the construction of forts and improvement of facilities along the frontier with the warring faction. Those forts and settlements with facilities are to be guarded at all times, and in the even a garrison moves to attack another will take it's place.

The Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act would definantly benefit everyone. It would help the Koinon Hellenon Reserve rich and bursting, so that we may sleep well at night knowing that no sudden calamity can doom us forever. It will promote intra-polis cooperation by allowing Athenai and Sparte to collaborate on the managment of the budget, and eliminating any hard feelings over expenditure. It would give us more insight to our current situation, both economically and militarily. There are no foreseable downsides to the Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act, only profound benfits for all. Vote in the affirmative now, men of Sparte, or forever regret it when we go bankrupt!

DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Rhobrios Pergamios/Jaertecken:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that as soon as the siege of Pergamon is lifted, that the athenian host under the command of General Doros lay siege and sack Sardis in retaliation.

1. Result: Pending.

[jirisys]

I want my own! I was the man who broke and then unified this alliance in the first years!

Mommy? Why is the mean man not making a marble statue out of me?

~Jirisys ()

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

"Arthouros, how glad I am that a man of such standing has been blessed by the Gods once more and represents this council as Epistates for another term. I feel that, by this, we have all been blessed. Fitting, too, that your name be given to the first statute of our great Koinon, and it is a fine tribute to your tireless work for Athens and for Hellas is that that momentous occasion cannot be taken from you. As for the bust in your honour...well, I suppose flattery is appreciated for such a long-lived record, there are certainly fewer lines upon that face than upon your own. Not that I have any room to talk, it has been a rough and at times desperate time for our generation.

I DISAGREE with the proposal that Poublious sallies forth to confront the Seleukid army (Biowulf 1) as I prefer and AGREE with your own suggestion; that Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there (Arthouros 1). I AGREE that we should send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai (Biowulf 3). I DISAGREE with the proposal that we start feeding a few mnai to the barbarians so they don't feel the need to take our riches from us. Whether or not it be only a few hundred, they are our mnai, earned by our people, by Hellenes. I do not wish to get carried away with the Koinon's success but... I believe that we are strong enough that we need not buy peace with barbarian neighbours. If they choose war then that shall be their end. We defeated the Makedonians. We did not cower behind gifts of gold in the face of their threat, why should we, then, cower before illiterate hordes whom could not dent Makedonian suzerainty?

I AGREE with Arthouros' other proposals.

As for Appius Claudius' proposed law... I think it has merit, and I am glad that it has been raised so early as we have time to fine-tune it's details. We must have fairness and accountability throughout the Koinon, and such must be seen as such. Forward Hellenes. Let us make the world a better place, let us civilise it......as only we Hellenes can"

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios Pergamios, a rich athenian citizen of pergamese birth, takes the stand. (consider this me joining the AAR)

I strongly agree with the first part Arthouros' first proposal of sending a relief force, led by Doros, to Pergamon. However, I disagree with the second part, shipping our beloved general Doros across the Aegaeum Mare every time the foul seleukid dogs reaches for the riches of Pergamon. The Seleukids must pay for their outrageous attack on Pergamon, and thus:

I propose that as soon as the siege of Pergamon is lifted, that the athenian host under the command of General Doros lay siege and sack Sardis in retaliation.

[Molinaargh]

This session is now closed.

[jirisys]

Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs Treasury Managment Act:

I DISAGREE.

~Jirisys ()

[Populus Romanus]

I DISAGREE.

~Jirisys ()

Which one?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Better not be mine...

[jirisys]

Wiseguy

~Jirisys ()

[Molinaargh]

253 BC

Athenian motions:
-Doros briefly leaves his post as Eponymos Archon and takes command of the Athenai forces stationed in Athenai, and travel to Pergamon to assist our forces there. He is then to leave reinforecements in the polis and return to Athenai. (Yes)
-Send a spy to look for anymore Epeirote holdings and to scout out the lands of: The Seleukids, the Romaioi, and the Getai. It's best to know where potential enemies could strike and where friends need help. (Yes)
-Expand the Military Docks at Rhodes further. (Yes)
-Build better barracks in Kydonia. (Yes)
-In Athenai, recruit 3 units of Thorakitai and 2 units of Hippeis in addition to any units of the same type that are already being recruited. (Not all of them were recruited, priority was given to Spartan spendings as they hold the office of Hegemon).

Spartan motions:
-Immediatly assault Serdike. (Yes)
-Leave Naissos untouched. We could use a buffer between ourselves and our allies, the Getai. (Yes)
-Launch the Sikilian Expedition. (Yes)
-Gradually replace levy troops with more professional troops. (Yes, I guess)
-Further advancement to Byzantion to be halted. (Yes)
-Request help from the Athenian Fleet to from a Koinon Fleet. (Yes)
-Improve barracks at Sparte. (Yes)
-More Agents be recruited and sent to the cities of the Getai establishing an intelligence network. (Yes)

The Defence of Pergamon

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Agis officially finished his Agoge training when he was dismissed from the Krypteia. He then focused fully on the challenge of leading the Koinon military is its Strategos. It was time to finish what he started at the Battle of Serdike and finally conquer the city.



































The government to be established in the city was undecided, so word was sent to the Spartan Gerousia asking for their advice on this matter. The settlement was not a hellenic one - these were barbaric people - but they could either adopt some hellenic ways or be left alone.



Some of the population were recruited as guards to maintain order.



While the Koinon Stratia remained close to the city. Agis thought an attack could be made from Naissos, but it never came. He wondered if building a couple of fortifications north of the settlement could guarantee a strong position so that the Koinon Army could move on to other lands, other battles.



A series of spies were recruited in Hellas and sent to scout the North, the East and the West.



In Rhodos the military port went through reforms only a few seasons after it was built.



In Sparte the military complex was being optimized. It was a heavy investment, but after this there would be no better equipment or training available. Sparte was reaching the pinnacle of military. Never stronger weapons would be forged...







In Kydonia some military improvements were being made as well.



While in Athenai the maximum potential had already been reached. Powerful elite training and equipment are now available in the polis.



















Doros sailed from Athenai to Pergamon to aid in the defence of Pergamon. He took a small Athenian force freshly trained with him, but the huge garrison of Pergamon would be the backbone of the defence.







The fearsome Seleukid chariots would play a decisive role in the battle, but not the role they wished.



The troops from Pergamon quickly arrived under Poublios and were placed under the command of Doros.











The Seleukid army tried to ambush the Athenians and their allies in the forest, but the hellenes held ground.



The chariots were able to do some damage to Doros's forces, but were too reckless.



Scared, the horses retreated back to the Seleukid lines and couldn't be controlled.



The chariots ended up breaking the Seleukid formation and killing many of their own men.



Doros ordered the hellenes to charge, and from there it was an easy victory.











Afraid that Halikarnassos could join the Koinon due to our recent successes in Anatolia, the Seleukids besieged that polis, attempting to strike first and gain more power before we did.



Such is the situation of Asia.



In the West, our recently trained spies found that the Romands have been sending small forces to Illyria, but haven't managed to gain a foothold yet.



But in the north of what they call "Italia" they had.



The situation in our northern borders is chaotic. Marching armies of the barbarian Getai tribes threaten the stability of our alliance, armies of the Basileos of Pontos come from Byzantion with unknown intentions and even the men from Naissos roam this uncertain frontier.



Regardless, the Spartans began their move to a new frontier. The Spartan armies met in the port of Ambrakia so that a strong force could be gathered to go in an expedition.



The two kings decided to lead this expedition themselves, taking as many men as they could in a mostly Spartan fleet reinforced by a few Athenian ships. Upon their arrival, the kings would each control half of the forces.



The destination? Sikilia.

The polis session is now open.

I can't see any of the images, I hope you can!

[Populus Romanus]

A slave walked into the Boule hall, and took Appius' seat. Soon, it came his turn to speak.
Men of Athenai, I bring you news from my master. He is unable to you himself, as he off on campaign with the Kings in the Sikilian Expedition. He would like me to point out to you that the Seleukeis are spread thin. A large part of their surviving forces are besieging Halikarnassos, leaving a petty garrison in Sardis. Appius believes that both the besieging force and Sardis are targets ripe for the picking. Relieving Halikarnassos, however, will do little to benifit the Koinon Hellenon. Taking Sardis would take a large amount of the heat off Pergamon and give the Stratia ton Athenai a more secure position with more offensive possibilities. You have a very ideal situation for some easy expansion, men of Athenai.

[Vaginacles]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

[Molinaargh]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

...

Look who's back!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

I DISAGREE. Not out of love for barbarians in general, but rather because it would make us Athenians look as hypocrites, as we opposed the enslavement of the population of Pella.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

I DISAGREE

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.
I also PROPOSE that we appoint a client ruler in Sardis. WITHDRAWN

I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?

Oh, and welcome back Vaginacles.

[Tyrfingr]

He is right, It is also important as a major port destination for the persian royal road, as well as having vast gold and silver deposits that are needed to continuing importing grain for Athens. It is a vital economic city for the Seleucids, crippling their access to the Aegean and depriving them with seapower influence outside of the Levant sea. It is clear on the course of action...

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

I agree on all of Vaginacles' proposals! The seulukids must pay for the hundreds of dead in the defense of Pergamon!

However, I must raise the question of the spartans, who are now sailing for Silikia - for who's account are they sailing? Sparta, or their own personal glory? Either way, we the Koinon have no interest in the west and the spheres of the Romani and Karkhēdōn, and a Silikia under spartan dominance would surely threathen the balance of our Koinon, maybe to the cause of civil war. The conquering lust of the spartan kings must be satisfied however, and through my contacts among traders and salesmen across the Mediterraneum, I have heard of Kyrenaia. Their king Magas is surpassing me in obesity, which says alot, and the people is screaming for new leadership. Let the spartans set sail for Kyrenaia, if they must sail anywhere.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

"I am of the belief that it is not wise to even try this; the Spartiatai have planned the invasion of Silikia for several years and suggesting them to steer their ships elsewhere would most likely only serve to annoy them and cause tension between our Poleis. It is also not in the Athenian Boule that it is decided where the Spartiatai armies go, but in the Gedrosia of Sparte. *

In other words I DISAGREE with this proposal.

My other proposal is of a more religious matter. As we speak, we are constructing barracks and training facilities in Kydonia for the future recruitment of the cretans into the koinons' armies. However, I notice that Kydonia lacks a proper place of worship, and men without spirital guidance is men without hope.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

To this proposal I AGREE with, though of course the barracks in Kydonia would have to be completed first."

Arthouros was seated.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

* Proposals concerning Spartan armies can be made over at TWC, though as I as said I'm quite sure they would not welcome this proposal

[Tyrfingr]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!

[Paltmull]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

We must remember, Men of Athens, That Antiochus will retaliate with many men , we need more defensive troops as well as men that can handle the new slave population of Sardis. Therefore i PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

I AGREE with proposals I, II and IV. I DISAGREE with proposal III. Athens should not establish military dictatorships over other Hellenes.

I DISAGREE. Not out of love for barbarians in general, but rather because it would make us Athenians look as hypocrites, as we opposed the enslavement of the population of Pella.

The Macedonians of Pella are, at least partially, Greek. You have to see the difference between Greeks and barbarians, Arthuros. The prosperity of our polis is heavily dependent on slavery, after all.

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.
I also PROPOSE that we appoint a client ruler in Sardis.

I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

I AGREE with proposals I and III. I DISAGREE with proposal II, unless a client ruler is necessary to maintain public order. (IIRC, client rulers and allied generals occupy FM slots; which means that the chance of new FM:s being born decreases when you recruit client rulers. If this is not true, I WITHDRAW my disagreement and AGREE instead)

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

I DISAGREE for the same reasons as Arthuros. Sparta's non-Koinon plans are none of our business.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

I AGREE!

And also: who gave our fleet permission to participate in Spartan expeditions?! I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first.

(our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Rhobrios takes the stand once more:

As I said before, Silikia is in the romani and carthaginian spheres of interest, and an spartan invasion of Silikia will effect all of the Koinon. Must I remind you that it's our athenian trading fleets who provides our league with the gold and silver to fund our armies? We cannot interfere in the western Mediterraneum, not yet. Let us build our strength in the east instead!

Arthouros has shown wisedom in supporting my proposal of constructing a shrine for glorious Athena in Kydonia, let that wisedom shine also on political matters!

255 BC: The Recognition of Zones of Interest and Expansion between the Poleis Athenai and Sparte (by Arthouros the Divider)
-Athenai recognizes that the lands West of Hellas and all Poleis West of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Sparte. This with the addition of the polis Kyrene. Athenai shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land west of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Spartiatai expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Spartiatai expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Athenai, then Athenai has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Spartiatai expansion/increased range of influence. Athenai also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Sparte.

-Sparte recognizes that the lands East of Hellas and all Poleis East of Hellas are in the Zone of Interest and Expansion of the polis Athenai. This with the exception of Byzantion which shall be a neutral polis. Sparte shall not attempt to conquer poleis and land East of Hellas, and shall not actively work against Athenoi expansion in the area, be it by ways of the sword or the word. If the Athenoi expansion in the area happens to be harmful to the Koinon as a whole, and/or Sparte, then Sparte has the right to voice its opposition of said expansion, the reasons presented should not be of a selfish nature used to hamper Athenoi expansion/increased range of influence. Sparte also reserve the right to voice its opposition of unfair treatment of the population of Free Poleis upon their incorporation under Athenai.

Arthouros stood up and spoke:

"I trust that you are familiar with this law? You bring forward an interesting point, that the Spartiatai expansion in Sikilia may bring the Koinon too close to the spheres of the Kart-Hadastei and the Rhômaioi. From what I have gathered by their discussions in the Gedrosia, they plan to block the straits of Messana with their fleet, and as the Rhômaioi do not have much of a fleet available to them they will effectively be blocked from interfering in the Spartiatai expansion there. Of course the Kart-Hadastei who have a presence on Sikilia might be harder to avoid war with. Sikilia, being an island, is also relatively easy to defend, something that Kyrenaia, being located on the mainland and close to the Ptolemaioi, is not.

Moving on:

You wish us to focus on the East instead of the West, correct? But that is exactly what we are doing - as when I say we I mean us Athenians, while "they"; the Spartiatiai focus on the West. If the Spartans would infer on our Eastern sphere of interest, then they would most likely make sure that the Polies they take are either neutral or aligned towards them, meaning that it is desirable for us to make sure that "they" focus on the West and we on the East. And I am certain that the Spartiatai would not just sit idly by and wait until they get thumbs up from us to start expanding, while we take Mikra Asia and gain influence, power and wealth."

Arthouros was seated, after respectfully nodding towards Rhobrios.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OOC:

I AGREE with proposals I and III. I DISAGREE with proposal II, unless a client ruler is necessary to maintain public order. (IIRC, client rulers and allied generals occupy FM slots; which means that the chance of new FM:s being born decreases when you recruit client rulers. If this is not true, I WITHDRAW my disagreement and AGREE instead)

You're right they do take up FM slots, and we do have fewer FMs than the Spartans which wouldn't really be remedied by this- I WITHDRAW my (Proposal II) proposal to recruit a client ruler in Sardis.

And also: who gave our fleet permission to paricipate in Spartan expeditions?! I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resourses for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first.

I AGREE.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Vaginarcles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull DISAGREE Arthouros

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?

1. AGREE Paltmull

2. AGREE Paltmull


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull


Paltmull:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Athenai – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 1

Sparte – Strategos = 3 Hegemon = 4

Hmm... We haven't had much luck when it comes to Hegemon elections...

@Molinaargh Which stats do our Athenian Family members have (management, influence)?

[Greenlizard0.]

I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

I am in line with this proposal.

I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

As the people has not done a lot wrong, I don't accept this motion.

Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

Disagreed. Instead, I would like to support:

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) there and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

, as this seems to be a better idea.

I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

For the protection of the polis Halikarnassos against our enemies, I am in favor with this proposition.

Therefore, I propose the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

We should not decide what the Spartans should do.

I propose that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

Agreed.

I propose we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

Oh, and Vaginarcles, could you please specify what you mean with 2000 Toxoloi (= 25 units of 80 men) and 4000 Peltast (= 50 units of 80 men) ? (I wasn't sure how many troops there are in each unit, yet Molinarch uses a small setting, so I assumed 80 men/unit).

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Vaginarcles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Greenlizard0 PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull DISAGREE Arthouros Greenlizard0

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros, Greenlizard0

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?

1. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0

2. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0


Paltmull:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros


Greenlizard0:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

1. AGREE Arthouros

[Populus Romanus]

Just to clarify, we will not turn our ships away from Sikilia.
And also, there is no reason to be worried about the Phoinikoi in Sikilia. The very reason we are sailing there is to kick their arses off the island, and spare our Hellenic brothers from their wrath. I must also say that attacking Kyrenaicia is absolutely out of the question. This would bring us into conflict with the Ptolemaioi, who we need in our fight against the Seleukeis.

Signed,
Pvblivs Appivs Clavdivs

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Good men of Athens, I AGREE with Vaginacles' first three proposals; that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations, that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants and that we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. This is not out of any sense of revenge upon Sardis, but rather for the reasons that Vaginacles offered in support of his proposals. We need the manpower and the mnai we will gain from such action. By the nature of this agrrement I must therefore DISAGREE with the counter-proposals of Arthouros. I DISAGREE also with the proposal that we establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) at Halikarnassos, though I AGREE that we should take it following on from Sardis. Instead I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

While I AGREE with Rhobrios' proposal to build a shrine for Athena in Kydonia, I DISAGREE with any proposal which seeks to command Spartan affairs in the West. Not only would such a move be precipitous - in terms of good relations within the Koinon - but it would also be in direct contradiction of Arthouros' law of division. By that law we have no right to interfere with Sparte in their pursuits in the West. Our friend from Sparte, Appius, has also made clear that Sparte's plans are pretty well thought out.

Finally, I AGREE that we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.

[Greenlizard0.]

Instead I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

Mainly because I agree on Athouros' plan, I must oppose your motion.

I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.

While the attack of Pontos on the Polis of Sinope (our onetime ally) may not be forgotten, I partly agree on this (until our common enemy is not dangoures anymore).

[Arthur, king of the Britons]

Vaginarcles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we attack Sardis as soon as we are able, lead by Doros as he has experience in handling rival city populations.

2. I also PROPOSE that we enslave All non-Hellen inhabitants. They will raise much needed funds for the military campaign against Antiochus Theo and his army of Macedonian Phalanxes and provide the labour necessary to till the fields until our military settlers arrive.

3. Finally, I PROPOSE we establish a Military dictatorship ran directly by the Strategos of the army staying at Sardis. He will establish the settling of landless athenian citizens to the new frontier of sardis. From there, we can exploit Sardis so Athens may Benefit the most from it.

4. I PROPOSE we equip and train 2000 Toxoloi and 4000 Peltast to man the walls of Sardis, when we feel that these troops are not needed, we can disband them so that they can become military settlers of Sardis.

1. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes PARTIALLY AGREE Arthouros; "If Doros is still in Mikra Asia then yes I AGREE, otherwise the Polemarchos should be in charge."

2. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull, Demosthenes
DISAGREE Arthouros, Greenlizard0

3. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Demosthenes
DISAGREE Paltmull, Arthouros, Greenlizard0

4. AGREE Rhobrios/Jaertecken, Paltmull


Arthouros:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we establish a Free Allied Kingdom (Type IV) in Sardis and that Sardis is to remain neutral in inter-koinon politics.

2. I PROPOSE that we upon taking Sardis look into taking Halikarnassos next and establish a Democratic Kleroucheia (Type II) there. Halikarnassos shall not be neutral.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If we follow my plan of neutral Sardis, not-so-neutral Halikarnassos then we will lose one civil war square and gain one civil war square; so after the conquest of Sardis and Halikarnassos, we will not have gained any civil war squares from where we are now. Sneaky huh?

1. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0, DISAGREE Demosthenes


2. AGREE Paltmull, Greenlizard0DISAGREE Demosthenes (though [AGREE[/B] that Halikarnassos is to be conquered next)


Rhobrios/Jaertecken:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE the spartans to redirect their ships for Kyrenaia.

2. I PROPOSE that we in Kydonia build a shrine for Athena, goddess of warfare, civilization, wisdom, strength, strategy, crafts, justice and skill!

1. DISAGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes

2. AGREE Arthouros, Paltmull, Greenlizard0, Demosthenes


Paltmull:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I I PROPOSE that if Sparta wishes to use our resources for non-Koinon business in the future, they come here and ask first. (our ships should fulfill their role in this expedition for some time though. Abandoning the Spartans now would be disastrous for our relations with them)

1. AGREE Arthouros


Greenlizard0:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE we build a small elite force (best units) to aid our troops in Micro Asia against the Arche Seleucia.

1. AGREE Arthouros, Demosthenes


Demosthenes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. I PROPOSE that we establish Halikarnassos as an allied autonomous polis within the Koinon..., neutral within Koinon affairs. This would offer the same balance sought by Arthouros' proposals.

2. I PROPOSE, in addition, that we seek an alliance with Pontos. By such we might better defend our holdings against what will likely be a concerted effort from the Seleukids to regain lost ground in Asia.

1. DISAGREE Greenlizard0, Arthouros

2. PARTIALLY AGREE Greenlizard0: "We surely need to be in agreement with the Spartans. Thus, I make it a requirement (or I retreat my agreement). I do find it a difficult desission. Pontos did attack three hellenic poleis. (Byzantium, Sinope and Nikaia). Perhaps I will reconsider it."

[Greenlizard0.]

We surely need to be in agreement with the Spartans. Thus, I make it a requirement (or I retreat my agreement). I do find it a difficult desission. Pontos did attack three hellenic poleis. (Byzantium, Sinope and Nikaia). Perhaps I will reconsider it.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

While the attack of Pontos on the Polis of Sinope (our onetime ally) may not be forgotten, I partly agree on this (until our common enemy is not dangoures anymore).

I should, perhaps, have been clearer. It is not with a mind to a long term alliance with Pontos, but rather as a short term necessity, until such time as we have..... neutralised the threat of that Persian-Makedonian abomination, the Arche Seleukeia. Pontos will still, one day, pay for their aggression against our allies in Sinope.

[Molinaargh]

This session is now over. Thanks guys.

[Vaginacles]

It is not a matter of right and wrong, it is a matter of pros and cons. Sardis has a history of supporting Kings and empires that seek to stifle the greek concept of freedom and self determination. Let us not forget that Sardis has been a stronghold for Imperial dominion since before Cyrus the Great and Marathon. The satrapy of Lydia has always been anti-greek autonomy, the non-hellens have no concept of self rule and will revert to a native strongman for leadership unless actions are taken to ensure their loyalty. I am not calling for the culling of the Hellene that makes their home there, as these brothers share our history and culture, and they are more likely to resist the imperial ambitions of the Seleucids. But what about the Persians in the royal court who benefitted from Seleucid status quo? What about the nationalistic Lydians who desire to see themselves carve a new empire in their name? We cannot afford civil unrest in a city like Sardis, that lies in the middle of Mitra Asia. Civil disturbance and the existence of Seleucid Loyalists are factors that would undermine our war and our strategic position in Asia. It is of vital importance that we reinforce Sardis and have it as a bulwark against Seleucid Aggression, and deny them access to the Agaean sea. As long as Sardis is in our hands, the trade with the bosphorous colonies and continue unabated, and grain can freely flow into Athens. If we allow these Lydians and Persians to govern themselves, we could see another Pontus, another Armenia, or another Cyrene, rise from a city that was supposedly pacified.

Furthermore, The Macedonian wars has left thousands of Attikans landless and in desperate need of employment. The devastation wrought on the fields of Attica have obliterated the Yeomanry that we rely on for our hoplites. Let us establish a military settlement, and in time form a colony in Sardis, where all inhabitants eventually become Athenian Citizens. This would allow the Landless in Athens to obtain property, and meet the requirement neccessary to qualify for Hoplite Service, as well as providing a solid recruitment base on a frontier region that will see hard fighting for the years to come. It would also solve the squalor we see daily, no more beggers in the Agora clammering for employment. They would be sent to Sardis, where their numbers will count for something, Rather than stay in Attica, where their numbers burden our Cities and towns.

Therefore, I REITERATE the value of military settlement and enslavement of Non-Hellenes in Sardis