Civil War in Libya

[Hax]

This sounds like a cry for the World Police. Something that rarely turns out as well as hoped.

Not at all. But for the love of God, just take a strong stance on what Gaddafi is doing to his people.

There are more north African Arabs in Europe than in Tunisia and Libya combined. Nothing prevents them from leaving Europe to help establish democracy in the Arab world.

All of them staying firmly put in cosy Europe, I'm not sure how one would berate the rest of Europe for inaction.

I was clearly talking about politicians, wasn't I?

Because we have played our hand by using dictators and kings as puppets, any involvement backing the rebellions going on across the arab world makes it too easy for the real threats (radical Islamic political factions/parties) to spin, propagandize and win over voters, securing control, making another Iran type situation in the middle east.

I'm not even talking about backing the protesters, but about at least condemning the murderers. Gaddafi is a criminal that ought to be judged in The Hague. Besides, Iran is an entirely different country with a different history. But for the record, there are very few citizens interested in another theocracy in their country. The chance that another Iran would be born is very slim.


And yet again, it all comes down on "but Islamists!". That's besides the point. If we truly, truly believe in democracy there ought to be some strong statements about what Gaddafi is doing, to hell with the consequences. There are principles we stand for here.

American diplomacy fared much better. Washington has supported its boy Mubarak for decades. Washington waited to see how events would unfold in Egypt, supporting their man in silence while publicly supporting the protesters. Then jumped ship at just the right moment. Well done to Miss Clinton, that's how diplomacy is done.

Yes, and that too is disgustful. Either say nothing, or condemn the government outright. And I'm talking about Mubarak and Ben Ali here, not about Gaddafi, the difference being, as I pointed out before, that Mubarak and Ben Ali didn't massacre the people of Egypt and Tunisia.

I think it ought to be clear that what Gaddafi is doing is inexcusable. I don't believe that anyone here disagrees with me. Well, maybe Sonic, but let's not talk about that.

Kind of my point in bold there, you can't have one standard for the Arab world and one for everyone else, either it has the roots for democracy or it doesn't. You know I don't get enraged about the Islam, Islamic states have every bit as much potential as Christian ones to become democratic. But you only need to read a history book to know that going that route is long and bloody, I don't see why the Arab world should be an exception. Often democratic movements will take on religious overtones, as they did in Britain with Protestantism for example. The same appears to be the case with the Shia protestors in Bahrain, and you have to accept there may well be a sectarian element to things that really limits the development of a liberal democracy as we understand it.

Yes, and you should just have to read a history book to find out that change is gradual. Of course we should stand for LGBT and women's rights. And the protests in Bahrain are not limited to the Shi'ite population, there are more people protesting than just them.

And speaking about Shi'ite theology, I don't think that Shi'a Islam is worse for a liberal democracy (as we understand it) than any other religion. In fact, Shi'ite states have historically been known to be more liberal than any other states. Of course, it might be reversed if they go the way of Iran. But I think it might just be worth it.

And even then, maybe we should accept the fact that our democracy may not be the only democracy. The question is whether it's worth it or not, and if we can talk with an Islamic democracy. And whether it's better for the people. I don't know either.

They are hardly being dramatic, news coverage I have seen has been very much in favour of the demonstrators. I think you're a bit paranoid when it comes to defending Islam, not every criticism of it is due to some sort of reactionary ignorance on the part of 'islamophobes'. It is a religion with a lot of historical baggage, as is Christianity, and it will have to come to terms with that. I think it will, its not like secular movements are anything novel in the Arab world, maybe democracy will be the next big thing after the failure of Arab nationalism...

If you ask me, there are loads of things we should criticise in Islam. I just don't think that we should redirect every proposal for a new government to the dustbin just because it may have Islamic undertones. I cannot disgree with the rest of what you said, though.