The right of homophobes to adopt children

[Rhyfelwyr]

When wanting to set the economy bsck to the 19th century and completely destroy all economic innovation and creativity wasn't enough for you, I honestly don't see much point in debating this with you.

Most of your 'criticism' is on this last page and seems to revolve around taking issue with some quirk of the English language.

[ajaxfetish]

...and he will learn that the name for "18" is this problem is "lowest common denominator", and he will also know that this number is highere than both the numbers he started out with, and thus will understand that using lcd a a standard in ither aspects of life means raising poor quality to a standqrd quality that is higher, usually much higher.

Since the BNP failed to complete primary school mathematics, they do not understand this, something it seems that they share with mr. Ajaxfetish.

You continue to act as if this were a mathematical issue, when it's clearly not. The manifesto used 'lowest common denominator' in a sentence, not an equation. The topic was television programming, not mathematics. Even if it were a math issue, I find it ironic that you're taking issue with treating the LCD as something small instead of large. It's a denominator after all. Sure, 18 is larger than either 9 or 6. But 1/18 is smaller than either 1/9 or 1/6. Clearly using LCD as a standard in other aspects of life means lowering high quality to a standard quality that is lower, usually much lower.

So it's arguable either way whether the use is mathematically appropriate. Regardless of the outcome of that argument, it is linguistically appropriate. Don't make an epic linguistic fail while attempting a cheap shot at the BNP. There has to be a more honest way to ridicule them.

Ajax

[HoreTore]

Most of your 'criticism' is on this last page and seems to revolve around taking issue with some quirk of the English language.

It's my personal pet peeve, yes... I see red whenever I see that term used improperly

Ajaxfetish: of course there are far, far worse issues in that manifesto. I haven't touched on issues like how they want to nullify the bill of rights and declaration of human rights, how they want to deport people for disagreeing with their policies, etc etc. But that the BNP is a fascist, authoritarian party should be clear as day to everyone, I see no real reason to state the obvious for the 764425458288278th time.

But what I see as even worse than their fascism is their complete incompetence when it comes to just about everything, and economic realities in particular, a trait they share with most, if not all, of their european populist friends. They're simply incapable of tying their own shoelaces, and they want to govern a country? Hah!

Also, denominwtor isn't restricted to fractions, and when you increase the denominator, you must also increase the numeral proportionally

[Husar]

.....And Glenn Beck not being smart enough to complete primary school maths is supposed to surprise me how....?

You inability/unwillingness to admit that you are wrong about the use of the term in the English language isn't surprising either.
It has been used here in the Backroom countless of times and not once have I seen you complain but now that you saw the BNP use it you make a mountain out of a molehill just so you don't have to admit that your point wasn't very good in the first place...

[HoreTore]

Nonsense! I spotted it a short while ago, I believe it was PJ that used it, and I most certainly objected to it at that time too!

You need to increase your lurking skillz, my dear

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I hate Scottish (Highland) folk music with a passion, I scived off every PE class when we did ceilidh dancing.

Don't knock it Rhy, it's a useful skill, the dancing and a pint of cider will, reputedly, get you laid nine times out of ten.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Nonsense! I spotted it a short while ago, I believe it was PJ that used it, and I most certainly objected to it at that time too!

You need to increase your lurking skillz, my dear

You really don't give up do you...

Don't knock it Rhy, it's a useful skill, the dancing and a pint of cider will, reputedly, get you laid nine times out of ten.

Despite my recent woes with women, my aim is not simply to get laid!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Etymological fallacy:

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the historical meaning of a word or phrase is necessarily similar to its actual present-day meaning. This is a linguistic misconception, mistakenly identifying a word's current semantic field with its etymology.[1] An argument only constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology, thus distinguishing an alleged "true" (etymological) meaning from the workaday use.[2]


A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

It had never occurred to me that 'lowest common denominater' is a bit of a misnomer. Nevertheless, expressions mean what they do, not what they should.

Compare the sentence 'mathematical meaning is irrelephant to common usage of an expression'. The etymology, the origin of the word is 'to irr an elephant'. However, the word irrelephant does not mean anymore one is running around irring elephants. The word has evolved to mean 'nothing really matters in the absense of elephants'. For who can live without these majestic beasts? Everything loses its relephants in the painful void of their absense.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It is not about saying "Homosexuality is good", it is about accepting the choice of the individual, and being there for them, even through difficult times.

Actually it seems as though it is exactly about the parents having to say "homosexuality is good";

"We are prepared to love and accept any child. All we were not willing to do was to tell a small child that the practice of homosexuality was a good thing."

Also, Horetore being hoist by his own petard has been amusing.

CR

[ajaxfetish]

Etymological fallacy:

The etymological fallacy is a genetic fallacy that holds, erroneously, that the historical meaning of a word or phrase is necessarily similar to its actual present-day meaning. This is a linguistic misconception, mistakenly identifying a word's current semantic field with its etymology.[1] An argument only constitutes an etymological fallacy if it makes a claim about the present meaning of a word based exclusively on its etymology, thus distinguishing an alleged "true" (etymological) meaning from the workaday use.[2]


A variant of the etymological fallacy involves looking for the "true" meaning of words by delving into their etymologies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy

It had never occurred to me that 'lowest common denominater' is a bit of a misnomer. Nevertheless, expressions mean what they do, not what they should.

Compare the sentence 'mathematical meaning is irrelephant to common usage of an expression'. The etymology, the origin of the word is 'to irr an elephant'. However, the word irrelephant does not mean anymore one is running around irring elephants. The word has evolved to mean 'nothing really matters in the absense of elephants'. For who can live without these majestic beasts? Everything loses its relephants in the painful void of their absense.

I feel like Dave Barry has entered the room

Ajax

[HoreTore]

French whining

Yes, Louis, that would be spot on if it wasn't completely wrong. Lcd isn't a historical term, it is an everyday term used today, and I am now referring to the mathematical definition, not the nonsense one. The problem is that a term still in everyday use has been given the exact opposite meaning by some random idiots, and we have now ended up with a term that can mean two opposite things, thus making it rather useless. Calling north "south" and south "north" is all well and fine, provided that you switch both terms, having a situation where North can mean both ways makes life rather painful when it comes to navigation, wouldn't you agree?

Its the same thing here. If my students goes around thinking that lcd means something small, it will prove a major stumbling block for their capability to learn fractions, as a big part of learning maths is learning the terms and language used in maths.

Bah, I'll leave you all to "snackify your beverages", like they showed on the daiy show a few weeks ago...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Norwegian whining

Hey man, you don't need to talk to me. You need to speak with Rabbit, who insulted you. He said you are hoisted by your own petard. This expression is of French origin. By your own admission, expressions mean their literal, etymological meaning, therefore Rabbit says you just farted.

[HoreTore]

Shows what happens when you drink three bottles of red wine for lunch.

Nono Louis, I don't argue that phrases has to be kept to their original meaning, language is flowing and changing. My argument is that one phrase shouldn't mean two completely opposite things at the same time. Ie. "north" should mean just "that way", not "that way" plus the opposite direction. Hae you been svimming in the mediterranian in Northern France lately?

And yes, I did just fart.... I've been doing it all day long, I'm on vacation, so my day has consisted on lying on the couch watching the world cup, drinking coffee and farting. A glorious time if I may say so.

[Furunculus]

In the same vein, slippery slope arguments about government removing children from 'homophobic parents', will not be happening because it is completely unreasonable.

Especially considering the socio-economical burden it would place on society, ensuring legal challenges and court battles, and an overhaul of the entire legal system and framework on the right of parents and bearing children.

that is not reassuring, as the notion that equality law would force the closure of catholic adoption agencies, was equally rubished by supporters as unreasonable.

that latter reason is likewise not a good supporting argument for why judicial tyranny will choose to interpret legislation as it pleases.

frankly, given the number of children that are left to rot in Britain's social care system the would would in fact be a better place of catholic adoption agencies were able to continue doing their good work.

then again i am a conservative, with an inbuilt suspicion of change for the sake of being modern...........

[rory_20_uk]

Ideally, every person who adopts should be perfect, a paradim of the values that society values.

But we live in the real world. Although they are bigots (and I'm sure would be dead against racist bigots - and probably not see the similarity) they are better than the likely alternative. No, they are not perfect, require more monitoring that others and wouldn't be at the top of the list of candidates, but seeing as we've a massive shortage of those willing to adopt, they're good enough.

[Husar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the more colloquial use of Lowest Common Denominator(lcd) isn't the polar opposite of it's mathematical meaning, I think the meaning isn't really changed, since I've usually seen it as some form of complaint, I understood it in the way that "going for the lowest common denominator" is usually seen as a bad thing because people are going for the lowest one, there are also higher common denominators which, in the opinion of the complaining party, people should strive to achieve instead of going for the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator is only relatively low in comparison to other common denominators which are higher. That blends in perfectly with the mathematical meaning, except in mathematics the lcd is a good thing because you want simplicity, people who use it as a political terms think it's a bad thing because it refers to simplicity and as such to something of less value, something that does not advance a people/civilization/village. As such the lcd is the same in both cases, but the actual interpretation of whether it is a good thing in the given situation is a different one.
Just like having a lot of water is a good thing when it's in a bottle in the desert and a bad thing when it's inside your lungs.

edit: It's also possible that I misunderstood what a denominator is, I only know maths in German...
I was thinking of the smallest common multiple, which it really us, but the denominator is what you have below a line with another number above, right?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Ideally, every person who adopts should be perfect, a paradim of the values that society values.

But we live in the real world. Although they are bigots (and I'm sure would be dead against racist bigots - and probably not see the similarity) they are better than the likely alternative. No, they are not perfect, require more monitoring that others and wouldn't be at the top of the list of candidates, but seeing as we've a massive shortage of those willing to adopt, they're good enough.

I'm not sure they're even bigots. It's difficult to tell, because they are talking to the Telegraph and the Telegraph is spinning this as "infingement of nice West-Indian couple" but it seems to me they are dissagreeing with the lifestyle, not promoting hate of individuals. I think that presented with a homosexual child they would support them emotionally, but they would feel unable to endorse an actively homosexual lifestyle.

Honestly though, how many couples in their early sixties in England do actively endorse homosexuality? I have a nasty supsician that the real difference here is that these people are willing to be honest about it. On balance I think this particular couple have a great deal to offer a child in terms of teaching them about convictions and compasion for people whose lifestyle you don't agree with. Their old-fasioned views on sex don't really detract from that enough to bar them from being foster parents.

So, in conclusion, I think this case has been a waste of time from which no one has benefitted - but a couple in their latter years now feel alienated from our society and some children will not have foster parents.

[Furunculus]

So, in conclusion, I think this case has been a waste of time from which no one has benefitted - but a couple in their latter years now feel alienated from our society and some children will not have foster parents.

very much agreed.

[HoreTore]

Kinda like the story of every gay couple wanting to adopt, eh?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Kinda like the story of every gay couple wanting to adopt, eh?

Except..... they can. They can probably even adopt if they express the view that all Christians are bigots.

Also, I would like to know if Muslim foster parents are screened so intrusively.

[Beskar]

then again i am a conservative, with an inbuilt suspicion of change for the sake of being modern...........

You didn't say that when you bought your new computer and your 3D vision googles.

[ajaxfetish]

My argument is that one phrase shouldn't mean two completely opposite things at the same time.

Sanction
Cleave
Oversight
Fast
Literally
Citation
Impregnable
Inflammable
Lease
Rent
Left
Ravel
Table
Bolt
With
Against
Awesome
Off
Out
Let
Below Par
Unshelled
Apparent
Peer
Dust
Fix
etc., etc., etc.

I don't know about Norwegian, but English is quite happy to have words or phrases that mean completely opposite things at the same time.

[Fragony]

That won't be happening, since BNP members are already banned from holding a number of public positions never mind being allowed to adopt.

The hypocrisy of the anti-fascist left makes me sick, the only BNP supporters I know are as I've said old women and young people like myself that can't get a job. Yet they are villified by some liberal left rich boys and have basic freedoms taken away for them, all, incredibly, in the name of freedom.

I will not defend the BNP as a party (beyond the ridiculous excesses to which some people take their criticisms), but I will defend their ordinary supporter.

They have a history, Party's like BNP and FN will never be rid of some influences. You need something new. Not voting for him but I like it how Wilders is doing. If you are despised by both the antifa and the skinheads you must be doing something right. Our German neighbours are getting something similar, going to be interesting how it will do.

[HoreTore]

Except..... they can. They can probably even adopt if they express the view that all Christians are bigots.

Also, I would like to know if Muslim foster parents are screened so intrusively.

And you support their right to adopt?

[HoreTore]

They have a history, Party's like BNP and FN will never be rid of some influences. You need something new. Not voting for him but I like it how Wilders is doing. If you are despised by both the antifa and the skinheads you must be doing something right. Our German neighbours are getting something similar, going to be interesting how it will do.

You mean like every major party, liberal, conserative or socialist, is?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And you support their right to adopt?

It's legal.

My issue here is that these people don't actually seem to have infringed anybody's rights. What these judges have done is decide that expressing the opinion that homosexual practices are immoral disqualifies one from civil society, regardless of how one actual treats others.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-and-off.html

Question: Why were they even asked, "Would you tell a child it was OK to be homosexual?”

[Fragony]

You mean like every major party, liberal, conserative or socialist, is?

Sure but the PVV is unapoligitely anti-islam (not anti muslim), other party's aren't. You would expect the skins to find a loving home there but they are not welcome

[Louis VI the Fat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...n-and-off.html

Question: Why were they even asked, "Would you tell a child it was OK to be homosexual?”

Maybe because they have joined a cult which preaches inequality. These people must not be allowed to try to 'correct' the orientation of children put in their care.


Would you be okay with handing over Jewish children to Christian fundamentalists, with the intent of correcting their sinful ways and raising them into Christians? This was an actual dilemma across much of Europe seventy years ago.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Maybe because they have joined a cult which preaches inequality. These people must not be allowed to try to 'correct' the orientation of children put in their care.

Whether or not Pentacostalism is a Cult is a seperate issue - I say gain, where is the evidence for this?

They have said they do not agree with a homosexual lifestlye, but they would only be fostering young children for a few weeks and they do not appear to be "homophobes" or to "hate" homosexuals.

The position they adopt appears to be a moral one, not an affective one.

[Furunculus]

You didn't say that when you bought your new computer and your 3D vision googles.

one major difference, and one minor misconception -

difference = this is something i chose to adopt, not something that has circumscribed my freedom by government edict.

misconception = there is nothing inherently contradictory between being conservative and yet opting for radical solutions.