It's hard not to become a Euro sceptic

[lars573]

It's not my fault you contradict yourself from one sentence to the next. Plus your ideas are still divorced from reality, at different times some of the cleavages in society have been too big to just smooth over, whether ethnic, class, or whatever.

The reality is that a state functions best when it has a relatively homogenous population. I think its funny to see a Frenchman like Louis arguing otherwise, given the roots of republicanism with Rousseau, when he thought France at his time was far too big and diverse to function as a republic. Of course, over the centuries with centralisation etc this has changed, and IMO now the nation states of western Europe are the natural level at which the state should exist.

Anyway, the problem with democracy is that is fails to represent the nation as a whole. It almost always represents a single class, or prioritieses one ethnic group or religion or whatever over another. Given that minority rights in democracies only exist to prevent an outright tyranny of the majority, minorities will never be ideally represented in an a democracy. They will have basic rights, but they won't have a real voice. And our last two Viceroy's have been

One classic example of this today, especially in Britain, is what you see with the white working-class. Democratic institutions completely fail to represent them, because the growing middle class suffocate their voice in a democratic system. IMO we need a more direct way to represent their interests, screw democracy. If you don't like that, just remember that the vote is not really valuable in itself, it is simply a means to an end - representation. If democracy fails to deliver that, it's not serving its purpose.

IMO corporatism is the best solution, kind of going back to the three estates idea - reserve a certain number of seats for groups that would otherwise not be represented in a democratic system. Say 40% of the population are working-class, and 60% middle-class... in a democracy, the middle-classes get 100% control of the government. If they have a majority they can do what they like (besides the basic rights given to minorities). The working-class have their rights but no voice, no power in government.

The only solution is power-sharing, with the interests of all the nation being represented regardless of whether or not they are a minority. Give each an equal voice. Every individual citizens should have the same voice in the government, instead of it being reserved to one interest group just because it is composed of more individuals.

This should be complemented by the fact that the nation should be the natural level for economic life. It is very much connected with the political sphere, since all democracy does is preserve the dominance of the international capitalist elite. People might complain about basing the market on national borders, but at the end of the day they do the same with the political sphere, and all good lefties will appreciate the two have to be connected for a succesful economy. Certainly, I support a strong welfare state.

In short, national socialism ftw.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think that this post might just somehow evoke a Godwin. But no Vuk, I do not support that German political movement from the mid 20th century.

Bollocks. Such backward 20th century ideas. Eruo egocentrism at it's finest. Just because that might be true in Britain/Scotland or even some other western European nations doesn't make it true everywhere. Look at Canada, a nation who's form of representative democratic government is copied nearly verbatim from the British model. Yet we have an entire federal party (Bloc Québécois*) dedicated to the representation of the interests of our largest ethnic minority, French catholics of Quebec. I mention Quebec specifically as there are populations of French Catholics outside Quebec in Canada. And even if you move outside the French popualtion of Canada there are MP's of most ethnic backgrounds you could find in Canada. Elected to represent ridings, in some cases, that cover ethnic communities of large cities. Or in other cases happened to be the person who chose to run in that riding. Perhaps because they were from that area. Our two previous Viceroy's were Haitian and Chinese immigrants .



* A party that I have a problem with only because of it's stated goal of destroying the country.

[HoreTore]

Political parties are not religions, no, but I see absolutely no reason why religion should be treated any different to any political party.

And come on, we all know what would happen if Labour mandated that a picture of Marx or Lenin should hang in every classroom. And no, that's not something I want in my classroom either.

In fact, everything unrelated to learning should be banned from my classroom.

[lars573]

Religion can be used as an indicator of cultural values. But I did note French first, as that does represent a cultural divide. Not as huge as some like to think though

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Political parties are not religions, no, but I see absolutely no reason why religion should be treated any different to any political party.

And come on, we all know what would happen if Labour mandated that a picture of Marx or Lenin should hang in every classroom. And no, that's not something I want in my classroom either.

In fact, everything unrelated to learning should be banned from my classroom.

Well, that's consistant. However, most people in Britian aren't Communists, like Marx, but most people in Italy are Roman Catholics.

So, it's a bit different.

[HoreTore]

Well, that's consistant. However, most people in Britian aren't Communists, like Marx, but most people in Italy are Roman Catholics.

So, it's a bit different.

Most people in Norway are social democrats, but I don't think we should hang either the labour party logo or pictures of labour leaders in classrooms because of that. Do you?

[InsaneApache]

Obrigado Portugal!

Next up Spain.

I'll give the Euro five months.

[rory_20_uk]

The Euro will hang on in there. What form it takes is a more interesting question.

[Tellos Athenaios]

This isn't the Inevitable Euro Default thread which so far had to default on its promise of imminent doom before Christmas. (Or something like that.)

[Subotan]

The reality is that a state functions best when it has a relatively homogenous population. I think its funny to see a Frenchman like Louis arguing otherwise, given the roots of republicanism with Rousseau, when he thought France at his time was far too big and diverse to function as a republic. Of course, over the centuries with centralisation etc this has changed, and IMO now the nation states of western Europe are the natural level at which the state should exist.

And yet the state can be a great homogeniser. The modern period has seen the centralisation of both states and populations, and there is no reason to assume that this process will not continue.* What is the "natural level", and why are we at it right now?

Anyway, the problem with democracy is that is fails to represent the nation as a whole. It almost always represents a single class, or prioritieses one ethnic group or religion or whatever over another. Given that minority rights in democracies only exist to prevent an outright tyranny of the majority, minorities will never be ideally represented in an a democracy. They will have basic rights, but they won't have a real voice.

You are describing a dysfunctional democracy, and probably one without adequate constitutional protections.

One classic example of this today, especially in Britain, is what you see with the white working-class. Democratic institutions completely fail to represent them, because the growing middle class suffocate their voice in a democratic system. IMO we need a more direct way to represent their interests, screw democracy. If you don't like that, just remember that the vote is not really valuable in itself, it is simply a means to an end - representation. If democracy fails to deliver that, it's not serving its purpose.

Or, it's simply the levelling out of political power, with the erosion of the immense privilege** white working class men have enjoyed in this country throughout the 20th Century.

* Of course, political devolution may occur, e.g. UK, France, (hopefully not) Italy etc., but rather the centralisation of population and the erosion of regional differences.

**By privilege, I do not mean economic privilege such as wealth or living standards, but the privilege of political power as a group. And yes, I'm still a socialist.

That's what mediumpowers such as China and the US tell themselves to cope with being second rank.

nice

[Rhyfelwyr]

Bollocks. Such backward 20th century ideas. Eruo egocentrism at it's finest. Just because that might be true in Britain/Scotland or even some other western European nations doesn't make it true everywhere. Look at Canada, a nation who's form of representative democratic government is copied nearly verbatim from the British model. Yet we have an entire federal party (Bloc Québécois*) dedicated to the representation of the interests of our largest ethnic minority, French catholics of Quebec. I mention Quebec specifically as there are populations of French Catholics outside Quebec in Canada. And even if you move outside the French popualtion of Canada there are MP's of most ethnic backgrounds you could find in Canada. Elected to represent ridings, in some cases, that cover ethnic communities of large cities. Or in other cases happened to be the person who chose to run in that riding. Perhaps because they were from that area. Our two previous Viceroy's were Haitian and Chinese immigrants.

Wow, Trudeau would be proud. Remember how he hated nationalism so much that he thought he would be clever and create a new civic identity for all Canadians so that they would live together and not become separatists.

Of course, it turned into a new sort of pan-Canadian nationalism.

You can try to be tolerant and inclusive but you will always find that nations do not in fact function best as multicultural havens, but as solid and homogenous entities.

[HoreTore]

I present the worlds largest democracy: India.

India is not only gargantuan, it is also so multicultural its absurd. There are no less than five major religions there(plus a ton of smaller ones), the worlds five biggest I might add, but the are also so many different ethnic groups its silly.

And yet, it is both a stable and functional democracy, as well as experiencing huge economic growth. But how is such a huge country so stable? Its not through the terror China uses against its 95% Han population, but rather through equal representation in government. All the major groups, ethnic and religious, is represented. In fact, if India was to do the opposite, and let one group run the show, the country would've been disolved within weeks.

India, who was a splintered colony just over half a century ago, looks set to be one of the worlds next superpowers. And it will be a democratic and multicultural superpower.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I present the worlds largest democracy: India.

India is not only gargantuan, it is also so multicultural its absurd. There are no less than five major religions there(plus a ton of smaller ones), the worlds five biggest I might add, but the are also so many different ethnic groups its silly.

And yet, it is both a stable and functional democracy, as well as experiencing huge economic growth. But how is such a huge country so stable? Its not through the terror China uses against its 95% Han population, but rather through equal representation in government. All the major groups, ethnic and religious, is represented. In fact, if India was to do the opposite, and let one group run the show, the country would've been disolved within weeks.

India, who was a splintered colony just over half a century ago, looks set to be one of the worlds next superpowers. And it will be a democratic and multicultural superpower.

I raise your stable multicultural utopia with Jammu/Kashmir and throw in a Golden Temple.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Examples of succesful multicultural states of enormous size are Italy, Germany, the UK.

150 years ago nobody spoke Italian, the only pan-Germanic law was Roman Law, and the UK had more time zones than Russia. Yet the impossible happened, massive countries of sixty million evolved.



The strenght and dynamism of Europe has always been the tension between diversity and unity. Full unity will be the death of Europe, we'll become the China of old, stagnant and dormant. Too much competition and we become the Europe of the first half of the 20th century, of the Dark ages.
Indeed, the very definition of Europe requires a common culture, with supernational structures, over a fragmented political landscape. It has been like that since the birth of Europe fifteen centuries ago.

[Strike For The South]

Examples of succesful multicultural states of enormous size are Italy, Germany, the UK.

150 years ago nobody spoke Italian, the only pan-Germanic law was Roman Law, and the UK had more time zones than Russia. Yet the impossible happened, massive countries of sixty million evolved.



The strenght and dynamism of Europe has always been the tension between diversity and unity. Full unity will be the death of Europe, we'll become the China of old, stagnant and dormant. Too much competition and we become the Europe of the first half of the 20th century, of the Dark ages.
Indeed, the very definition of Europe requires a common culture, with supernational structures, over a fragmented political landscape. It has been like that since the birth of Europe fifteen centuries ago.

These countries all became stronger, the Eu is hurting countries

[Louis VI the Fat]

These countries all became stronger, the Eu is hurting countries

That's what mediumpowers such as China and the US tell themselves to cope with being second rank.

[gaelic cowboy]

delete

[Strike For The South]

I present the worlds largest democracy: India.

India is not only gargantuan, it is also so multicultural its absurd. There are no less than five major religions there(plus a ton of smaller ones), the worlds five biggest I might add, but the are also so many different ethnic groups its silly.

And yet, it is both a stable and functional democracy, as well as experiencing huge economic growth. But how is such a huge country so stable? Its not through the terror China uses against its 95% Han population, but rather through equal representation in government. All the major groups, ethnic and religious, is represented. In fact, if India was to do the opposite, and let one group run the show, the country would've been disolved within weeks.

India, who was a splintered colony just over half a century ago, looks set to be one of the worlds next superpowers. And it will be a democratic and multicultural superpower.

You neglect the fact many regions of India couldn't make a go of it on their own

Not true for the EU, in fact most EU countries would be better off

[HoreTore]

You neglect the fact many regions of India couldn't make a go of it on their own

Not true for the EU, in fact most EU countries would be better off

I see you buy into the anti-EU propaganda...