The Desire To Protect "Culture"

[Skullheadhq]

Yes.


Yes, and yes if you want something classical. Finish listening to them both.


Yes.


Yes.



"Narrow minds devoid of imagination. Intolerance, theories cut off from reality, empty terminology, usurped ideals, inflexible systems. Those are the things that really frighten me. What I absolutely fear and loathe." - Haruki Murakami

With the exception of Gordon Ramsay I didn't like any of the above.

[Furunculus]

One thing the right wingers never want to talk about, is that they said the same thing 20 years ago about east asians(primarily vietnamese).

It didn't happen then, it won't happen now. What problems we have now will be solved, just like we solved the problems with the vietnamese, who as a group now beats ethnic norwegians when it comes to things like employment and education.

oh contraire, if i could replace every immigrant X with an ex-British army immigrant from Nepal I would do so in a shot.

instant way to achieve a harmonious society in one easy move.

[Banquo's Ghost]

oh contraire, if i could replace every immigrant X with an ex-British army immigrant from Nepal I would do so in a shot.

instant way to achieve a harmonious society in one easy move.

Not really. Gurkhas are highly protective of their own culture and have re-shaped British regimental structure to match their needs. One of the favourite jokes about Gurkha officers back in my day was how quickly they went "native". With sufficient numbers (one assumes you would allow dependents, not just the soldiers themselves) ex-Gurkhas would (and do) gravitate towards their own groups and present just as many issues of alienation as many other immigrants. Then you get their descendants - not having served in the military, but legitimate citizens - who may well suffer the same sense of culture-clash as many second and third generation immigrants who didn't make the decision to live in the UK.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not really. Gurkhas are highly protective of their own culture and have re-shaped British regimental structure to match their needs. One of the favourite jokes about Gurkha officers back in my day was how quickly they went "native". With sufficient numbers (one assumes you would allow dependents, not just the soldiers themselves) ex-Gurkhas would (and do) gravitate towards their own groups and present just as many issues of alienation as many other immigrants. Then you get their descendants - not having served in the military, but legitimate citizens - who may well suffer the same sense of culture-clash as many second and third generation immigrants who didn't make the decision to live in the UK.

True, but the same can be said of any of the other "native" minority ethnic groups, they are still nominally "British" though and conform to basic British ideas about civic authority and law and order.

So Furunculus may have a point.

[HoreTore]

oh contraire, if i could replace every immigrant X with an ex-British army immigrant from Nepal I would do so in a shot.

instant way to achieve a harmonious society in one easy move.

What on earth has that to do with my post...?

[Banquo's Ghost]

True, but the same can be said of any of the other "native" minority ethnic groups, they are still nominally "British" though and conform to basic British ideas about civic authority and law and order.

So Furunculus may have a point.

I don't disagree that he has a point. Immigrants who dedicate themselves to the service of their new country are always welcome and usually beneficial.

It's the "instant harmonious society" that I wanted to challenge - especially in terms of what happens to the second generation (who typically did not give such service whether military or otherwise).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't disagree that he has a point. Immigrants who dedicate themselves to the service of their new country are always welcome and usually beneficial.

It's the "instant harmonious society" that I wanted to challenge - especially in terms of what happens to the second generation (who typically did not give such service whether military or otherwise).

I think you're completely right, but I also think Furunculus is talking in relative terms, not absolutes. I have to say, living in Exeter, that the expansion in the Muslim population has been extraordinary in the last five years or so. In the last two or three years there has also been an expansion in the number of veiled women.

I'll say flat out, I don't like it, I don't want it. Not being able to someon's face makes me deeply uncomfortable and I actively resent it.

Say whatever you like about me, I just find it intollerable.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I think you're completely right, but I also think Furunculus is talking in relative terms, not absolutes. I have to say, living in Exeter, that the expansion in the Muslim population has been extraordinary in the last five years or so. In the last two or three years there has also been an expansion in the number of veiled women.

I'll say flat out, I don't like it, I don't want it. Not being able to someon's face makes me deeply uncomfortable and I actively resent it.

Say whatever you like about me, I just find it intollerable.

I sympathise with your situation, and have wrestled with my own intolerance regarding "invasive" changes to my rural idyll.

But then I get far more annoyed with young white men who wear their hats on backwards and apparently have difficulty dressing themselves adequately enough to keep their trousers at a decent level. I resent so many things about modern society it's barely tolerable.

[Subotan]

With the exception of Gordon Ramsay I didn't like any of the above.

That's entirely beside the point, as you were talking about culture being dead - not that you personally dislike modern culture. For example, if we take IMDB's top 50 TV Series of all time, we find that only 19 out of 50 started before the turn of the Millennium - hardly the kind of ominous sign that TV is dead. I gave you an example of the boundaries modern metal is pushing against, and knowing that you'd dislike that anyway, I showed you that the modern era can produce great opera of all things. Murakami is universally regarded as one of the greatest writers of the age, and your failure to recognise this is remarkable, given that he focuses on the alienation of the individual from modern life.

Besides, what makes the past so awesome anyway?

[Strike For The South]

I sympathise with your situation, and have wrestled with my own intolerance regarding "invasive" changes to my rural idyll.

But then I get far more annoyed with young white men who wear their hats on backwards and apparently have difficulty dressing themselves adequately enough to keep their trousers at a decent level. I resent so many things about modern society it's barely tolerable.

samesies bro, samesies

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I sympathise with your situation, and have wrestled with my own intolerance regarding "invasive" changes to my rural idyll.

My Idyll remains exactly the same, poor local peasents and a few comuters, but the Country's Principle City has changed at an alarming pace, with two new mosques in about five years and, as I said, these veiled women. The rest I can get used to, but the veils I can barely tollerate.

But then I get far more annoyed with young white men who wear their hats on backwards and apparently have difficulty dressing themselves adequately enough to keep their trousers at a decent level. I resent so many things about modern society it's barely tolerable.

Well, imagine feeling like the only sane man of your generation. Those "people" with the ridiculous trousers are about my age.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well my non-rural idyll has quite a lot of immigrants and I never thought anything of it before I heard of all this immigration talk, and I still don't. No burqas, no bombs. Plus if anything they are politer than other people. But then they do tend to be Pakistani/Bangladeshi, and it seems most people in this thread don't like Arabs.

I still think the cultural aspect of immigration is a fuss over nothing. What I don't like is the economic side because they do take jobs from the locals. But I don't blame that on the immigrants, more scumbag politicians...

[Fragony]

Nothing going on here either. Muslims aren't the problem, they just come from islamic countries. Islamphilae and islamism is a toxic brew though, the leftist church will never understand they aren't doing anyone a favour

[Paltmull]

"All immigrants are unemployed and lazy. They're just taking advantage of our welfare system!"
"But I know a lot of immigrants who have jobs, and who aren't like that at all."
"Well... uhm... THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!11"



Circular reasoning, anyone?

[Louis VI the Fat]

"All immigrants are unemployed and lazy. They're just taking advantage of our welfare system!"
"But I know a lot of immigrants who have jobs, and who aren't like that at all."
"Well... uhm... THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!11"



Circular reasoning, anyone?

Rubbish.

They take all our jobs, and they are all on welfare.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"All immigrants are unemployed and lazy. They're just taking advantage of our welfare system!"
"But I know a lot of immigrants who have jobs, and who aren't like that at all."
"Well... uhm... THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!11"



Circular reasoning, anyone?

They do both, and in both cases they are being unhelpful.

[Fragony]

"All immigrants are unemployed and lazy. They're just taking advantage of our welfare system!"
"But I know a lot of immigrants who have jobs, and who aren't like that at all."
"Well... uhm... THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!11"



Circular reasoning, anyone?

Nobody ever said all so no there is no circular reason, anywhere

No caps to be found either, only in your post

[HoreTore]

They do both, and in both cases they are being unhelpful.

Nonsense!

They will only take your job if they can do it better than you. And when better people are employed, our economy gets better, which in turn creates even more jobs, which means that even lazy brits can get one.

[rory_20_uk]

They get jobs also if they are willing to do it when locals are not.

Those with jobs can then bring in the rest of their family. Not in itself a problem at all as long as they are desiring to integrate. But often they are not.

It also creates more and more who drag the economy down as they do not have jobs, but require housing, food etc. Why get a job when one can not have one officially, get handouts and discounts and then do something else off the books?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Nonsense!

They will only take your job if they can do it better than you. And when better people are employed, our economy gets better, which in turn creates even more jobs, which means that even lazy brits can get one.

The thing is we could do without the competition because when there's more people than jobs then its idiotic to invite more in. And immigrants will often get priority because its easier to pay them under the minimum wage.

[HoreTore]

The thing is we could do without the competition because when there's more people than jobs then its idiotic to invite more in. And immigrants will often get priority because its easier to pay them under the minimum wage.

More competition for jobs equals lower pay, and rising pay is the main enemy of export activity, and exports is sgain crucial to economic growth. Therefore, keeping immigrants from taking jobs from brits leads to economic stagnation, which in turns leads to british people getting laid off. Thus, to ensure that british people have jobs, immigrants needs to take their jobs.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Nonsense. Immigrants don't take jobs from Brits, because Brits don't want to work that regime for such lousy payment. Sainsbury's has a really simple business proposition: scale up (i.e. fewer shops), or hire Poles to work 6AM - 10PM. Otherwise the local shops are simply not profitable. Then take credit for keeping open local shops thereby giving the villagers the idea that somehow something is actually still going on.

[Subotan]

More competition for jobs equals lower pay, and rising pay is the main enemy of export activity, and exports is sgain crucial to economic growth. Therefore, keeping immigrants from taking jobs from brits leads to economic stagnation, which in turns leads to british people getting laid off. Thus, to ensure that british people have jobs, immigrants needs to take their jobs.

I.e. White working class male Brit is screwed regardless of government policy

[HoreTore]

I.e. White working class male Brit is screwed regardless of government policy

No. The increased economic growth that results from immigrants taking low-paid jobs results in jobs created for the british working class.

So in summary, immigrants taking the jobs from the british means that the british can get a job.

[Beskar]

Well my non-rural idyll has quite a lot of immigrants and I never thought anything of it before I heard of all this immigration talk, and I still don't. No burqas, no bombs. Plus if anything they are politer than other people. But then they do tend to be Pakistani/Bangladeshi, and it seems most people in this thread don't like Arabs.

Same here. They seem politer and seem genuinely concerned about things and situations. Average whitie doesn't even know the day of the week it is, never mind having an actual opinion on something more complex than a slobbering half-hanged jaw.

[Paltmull]

Nobody ever said all so no there is no circular reason, anywhere

No caps to be found either, only in your post

I was exaggerating quite a bit, but I feel that some people (not necessarily in this thread) hold this quite contradictory opinion. If an immigrant is unemployed, he/she is cheating the welfare system. If an immigrant has a job, he/she is "stealing" said job from the natives. Imagine being in that situation as an immigrant. Whatever you do, someone will blame you for all problems that the country has. I, for one, wouldn't be too eager to "assimilate" into a society that treated me like that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No. The increased economic growth that results from immigrants taking low-paid jobs results in jobs created for the british working class.

So in summary, immigrants taking the jobs from the british means that the british can get a job.

Well, no, because there is no gap in the market for the unskilled Briton if immigrants take all the working class jobs. The long and short of it is that the British working class cannot have everything the middle class does, and if they are going to have jobs it is going to be for less pay than the middle class.

[HoreTore]

Well, no, because there is no gap in the market for the unskilled Briton if immigrants take all the working class jobs. The long and short of it is that the British working class cannot have everything the middle class does, and if they are going to have jobs it is going to be for less pay than the middle class.

.....and the economic boost immigration gives creates that kind of jobs. The service sector is always the first one to expand when things start growing.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thus, to ensure that british people have jobs, immigrants needs to take their jobs.

HoreTore, you are doing that thing where you want something to be true so you decide that it is going to be true... as can be seen from statements like the above.

When exactly should working class Britons expect to reap the benefits if the system works the way you say it does? They've been coming in in droves for a few decades now and I haven't seen it yet...

Same here. They seem politer and seem genuinely concerned about things and situations. Average whitie doesn't even know the day of the week it is, never mind having an actual opinion on something more complex than a slobbering half-hanged jaw.

Also true I guess. They tend to be pretty well informed and aren't all just a giant Labour block vote, a lot of them are small business owners so they vote Tory.

[HoreTore]

"want something to be true"?

Immigration keeps wages down. Low wages strengthens the export industry. A strong export sector is the fundation of a strong and growing economy. A growing economy creates more jobs.

Don't let your marxist side cloud your vision, Rhy. Zero unemployment and high wages look quite appealing, but it will lead to en economic collapse in a very short while. Some unemployment and sensible wages are key to sustainable economic growth.

And when will the british cash in? They already have, living standards have been rising dramatically for the last 30 years in all of europe. "Coincidentally", that's also the period where we have had immigration.