The Desire To Protect "Culture"

[HoreTore]

It's very telling that the leading british racist party's charter also contains a splendid recipe for garuanteed economic stagnation and collapse.

Racism and economic incompetence goes hand in hand.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

.....and the economic boost immigration gives creates that kind of jobs. The service sector is always the first one to expand when things start growing.

....that get taken by immigrants often as not. The British service sector is minimum-wage, it is in that "immigrant" wage bracket you're so excited about.

So no dice.

[Louis VI the Fat]

"want something to be true"?

Immigration keeps wages down. Low wages strengthens the export industry. A strong export sector is the fundation of a strong and growing economy. A growing economy creates more jobs.

Don't let your marxist side cloud your vision, Rhy. Zero unemployment and high wages look quite appealing, but it will lead to en economic collapse in a very short while. Some unemployment and sensible wages are key to sustainable economic growth.

And when will the british cash in? They already have, living standards have been rising dramatically for the last 30 years in all of europe. "Coincidentally", that's also the period where we have had immigration.

Ah, great. Just when the Chicago School of Economics has finally been intellectually bankrupted our resident Marxist becomes a convert.

[Louis VI the Fat]

AP - A train carrying Tunisian immigrants from Italy was halted at the French border Sunday in an escalation of an international dispute over the fate of North African migrants fleeing political unrest for refuge in Europe.
But France blamed what it said were hundreds of activists on the train planning a demonstration in France, and posing a problem to public order. Traffic was re-established by evening - but not before Italy lodged a formal protest.

“At no time was there a ... closing of the border between France and Italy,” French Interior Ministry spokesman Pierre-Henri Brandet said. It was an “isolated problem,” he said by telephone, “an undeclared demonstration.”

He estimated that up to 10 trains may have been affected, five on each side.

There was no immediate Italian reaction to the French explanation late Sunday.

Italy has been giving temporary residence permits to many of the roughly 26,000 Tunisians who have gone to Italy to escape unrest in northern Africa in recent weeks. Many of the Tunisians have family ties or friends in France, the country’s former colonial ruler, and the Italian government says the permits should allow the Tunisians to go there under accords allowing visa-free travel among many European countries.

France says it will honor the permits only if the migrants prove they can financially support themselves and it has instituted patrols on the Italian border - unprecedented since the introduction of the Schengen travel-free zone - bringing in about 80 riot police last week. Germany has said it would do the same.

http://www.france24.com/en/20110417-...rica-diplomacy

Since the revolutions, Italy's been swamped with tens of thousands of illegal North African immigrants in the past few months. To put pressure on the rest of Europe, Italy last week has granted visas to them. Then started to put them on trains to other European countries.

Bar France in turn managing to offload them all onto Britain in some sort of cunning scheme, I want the borders to remain firmly closed.
Let Italy do the same. Then we help somebody to power in Libya, anybody, on the condition we can return to Libya all illegal African immigrants since the start of the revolutions.
While we're at it, let's bombregimechange Italy too. Their autocratic leader is well past his expiry date.

[HoreTore]

....that get taken by immigrants often as not. The British service sector is minimum-wage, it is in that "immigrant" wage bracket you're so excited about.

So no dice.

Then they should get better at their jobs instead of whining because someone more able gets it.

Louis, this is called "frontfagsmodellen"(doesn't translate well), and it's the economic modell Norway(through Labour) has followed since the 80's.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Same here. They seem politer and seem genuinely concerned about things and situations. Average whitie doesn't even know the day of the week it is, never mind having an actual opinion on something more complex than a slobbering half-hanged jaw.

Stereotyping for racist purposes cuts both ways and will be punished according to the rules.

Everyone please consider this my final warning.

Thank you kindly.

[Furunculus]

It's very telling that the leading british racist party's charter also contains a splendid recipe for garuanteed economic stagnation and collapse.

the BNP can indeed add being left-wing to the list of its sins.

[Incongruous]

No. The increased economic growth that results from immigrants taking low-paid jobs results in jobs created for the british working class.

So in summary, immigrants taking the jobs from the british means that the british can get a job.

Yes, that is how it works, just not in real life, or at least not in Britain. The combination of a nannying welfare sate and mass immigration upon the native working class has been to obliterate it economically and culturally, they have been crushed by the absurd promises of leftist charlatans and a cut throat class of business owners.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Then they should get better at their jobs instead of whining because someone more able gets it.

Louis, this is called "frontfagsmodellen"(doesn't translate well), and it's the economic modell Norway(through Labour) has followed since the 80's.

No, the immigrants are more likely to work long hours for bad wages - Brits are just as capable of doing the jobs, but they want better ones. Back to my original point, immigration has depressed wages and the welfare state/politicians promises have created unreasonable expections for the native working class.

Still no dice.

You're completely isolated here, HoreTore.

[Rhyfelwyr]

the BNP can indeed add being left-wing to the list of its sins.

C'mon man, you know better than to throw terms like that around just for petty point scoring.

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do. Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do.

Yes, that's where the Poles come in. No, seriously, the reason Poles are hired is not just because they want to work for that wage. They want to work for that wage and those hours and they don't appear to require the same benefits (health/pension/insurance). That seems odd, until you realise what you just wrote a few sentences down...

Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

Yes, Britain has a weird intern scheme. We all know that.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

That is the real issue: those Poles and other immigrants do work for conditions which border on (or are outright) illegal under your employment laws. What you don't realise is that as bad as people want jobs, Brits will quickly find out how efficient government can be if it concerns undeclared income. So they will want their employer to take care of the paperwork he is legally obliged to provide. Unless they are not British and they can almost freely dodge the whole employment law issue by virtue of being from some other place without equivalent laws; when the taxes are not due to Britain, but Poland say. The reason for this is even simpler: burden of proof. Easy to provide if you are supposed to be handed all the paperwork, less so if the paperwork is in Polish and not forthcoming.

[Noncommunist]

C'mon man, you know better than to throw terms like that around just for petty point scoring.

Anyway, it is a myth that white people just won't do the jobs immigrants do. Maybe you can tell that to the people I know who do all kinds of crappy unpaid work schemes for a few weeks at a time and still get no permant job out of it... basically a scam where the company recycles to the next person on Jobseekers to get an unlimiated supply of free labour. But they still go through this in the hope of getting some kind of work.

And all the while we are carting in immigrants from the Third World so big business owners can dodge the mimimum wage. I mean, this isn't even a free market issue like HoreTore is saying, we're talking about paying people illegaly low wages, which is in fact unhealthy for the economy.

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

[Beskar]

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

Supply and Demand. People flooding in lowers wages as people will work for cheaper.

On the otherside, in limited employment, wages rise as they need to provide incentive for people to work there.

[Banquo's Ghost]

This whole thread is getting surreal, why is the left-winger arguing for the free market?

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Though, there are very few genuine lefties on this board.

[HoreTore]

If the wages are illegally low, that seems to be more of a problem with them charging illegally low wages, not the immigration.

Indeed. The blame for that should not be on the immigrant, but on the employer. Social dumping is a serious issue, of course, and one that I haven't touched on so far ithis thread(even though the ones above seem to think I do). All businesses needs to be regulated by a tariff negotiated between the employers and the unions, and of course noone can be paid below that tariff, immigrant, pole or native.

That's not the scenario I've talked about when I've talk about "keeping wages low"(actually, it's "keeping wage growth low").

In the past decades, western europe(do I care about britistan?) has experienced tremendous growth and job creation. Without immigration, we would have next to no unemployment. Sounds like a dream, but the reality of it is quite the nightmare. What happens with too low unemployment, is that the workers gain too much power, and will use it to raise wages(too much creates the opposite problem, of course). This will cripple the export economy, which in turn will cripple the economy. What is needed, is a steady, slow and sustainable growth. For that to happen, you need to have a proper balance of power between the three parties in the labour market(worker, employ and state). What immigration does is keep that balance by limiting the otherwise unbalanced power the workers will have during times of econmic growth. Thus, immigration is vital to the economy.

If we hadn't gotten a bunch of poles here this decade, the norwegian economy would've tanked long ago, as there is no doubt that the limited supply of construction workers would've created a bubble.

Sustainable growth, the answer to every question in life.

[HoreTore]

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

The model I'm talking about has been the social democratic creed since the 60's, Banqou, long before we had any immigration.

It's also quite Keynesian, and how is that anything but true leftism? Free market... Hah! I'm arguing in favour of the three-party cooperation, just like you should expect any norwegian leftie to do.

[Noncommunist]

Supply and Demand. People flooding in lowers wages as people will work for cheaper.

On the otherside, in limited employment, wages rise as they need to provide incentive for people to work there.

Certainly, the market value would be lowered normally with more workers. However, if the government has created a price floor, then the fault is with the employers lowering wages to an illegal level.

[HoreTore]

Certainly, the market value would be lowered normally with more workers. However, if the government has created a price floor, then the fault is with the employers lowering wages to an illegal level.

Quite correct. The proce floors doesn't have to be set by the government though, it ca be negotiwted between the workers union and the employers union.

[Fragony]

In his own inimitable way, this is what Fragony is on about. The multiculturalist creed is so strongly in favour of unlimited immigration that they end up tying themselves in knots, even to the extent of throwing out other principles like socialist economics. Just as long as immigration can be justified without criticism.

Well yeah that's about it, they keep furiously demanding both immigration and socialism. It's simply not possible someone has to haul that cart. Nothing wrong with a full stop on immigration for a few years except that some people think that's not 100% ok and might get mean

edit; and thx for understanding that I don't give a crap about immigrants themselves

[Skullheadhq]

besides, what makes the past so awesome anyway?

Homerus, Vergilius, Dante, Machiavelli, Augustinus, Erasmus, Luther, Erico Caruso, Plato, Verdi, Mozart, Chopin etc. etc.
Name one modern equivalent...

[Fragony]

Homerus, Vergilius, Dante, Machiavelli, Augustinus, Erasmus, Luther, Erico Caruso, Plato, Verdi, Mozart, Chopin etc. etc.
Name one modern equivalent...

Only one? Equivalent of Dante would be Harry Potter by the way

[HoreTore]

Only one? Equivalent of Dante would be Harry Potter by the way

Indeed.

Nostalgia is dangerous. We elevate what was once good to divine levels, and start seeing new things and creativity as dangerous.

Art is fundamentally about creating emotions in people, and of course, the art that makes us feel happy and good is what we enjoy the most. Take Lady GaGa, for example. I'm quite sure SkullheadHQ will dismiss her as trash, but her music has brought happiness and enjoyment to millions, if not billions. Every saturday night, people are happy and dancing while listening to her music. If you can't see that as a good thing, you've really detached yourself from the real world.

And don't come saying it's so easy to make pop music. There are millions of people trying to be pop stars, and only a handful make it. How many people tried to compose music in Mozart's day? A few thousands? The skill needed to make it today is much greater than the skill needed to make it before.

There's also the fact that we only remember the good stuff. They made a ton of crap before as well, but that's all forgotten, just like the crap today will be forgotten. But mozart and beethoven is still remembered, just like MJ and Madonna will still be remembered in 2211.

I was once like this too. I only listened to the guitar-heavy rock of the 60's and 70's, and despised everything modern. My eyes were shut, and I refused to see. But when I opened my eyes, I realized that there's just as much creativity in todays world, if not more. Music has evolved, and so should I.

[Beirut]

Homerus, Vergilius, Dante, Machiavelli, Augustinus, Erasmus, Luther, Erico Caruso, Plato, Verdi, Mozart, Chopin etc. etc.
Name one modern equivalent...

You're covering about 2500 years of recorded history with that list, indeed the vast majority of recorded history, and leaving only the last 150 years to compare to the twenty-five centuries that came before.

You can't confine the other person to less than 10% of what you yourself claim as a working area and then blame the other person for not producing as much.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You're covering about 2500 years of recorded history with that list, indeed the vast majority of recorded history, and leaving only the last 150 years to compare to the twenty-five centuries that came before.

You can't confine the other person to less than 10% of what you yourself claim as a working area and then blame the other person for not producing as much.

Of course you can. My God man, what do you expect we over-fifties to do all day othwerwise? :shakes stick:

[Jaguara]

Only one? Equivalent of Dante would be Harry Potter by the way

Uh, no.

Dante = Author/poet
Harry Potter = Character in a popular book, or you could be referring to the series of books themselves.

Thus...
Dante could relate to Rowling
or the Divine Comedy could relate to the Harry Potter series
(though based only on popularity - the quality of the literature is not comparable. As to long term impact...will Harry Potter be remembered in 100 years? in 500?)

Logic 101, my dear fellow.

Anyway, I would say that Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings Trilogy are a better comparison to Dante and the Divine Comedy. (Though the format is different)
As for modern poets and writers, we still have many that are formidable, some of which are still alive. Can we go back as far as the the Victorian era to claim the rights to Dickens and the like?

Anyway, as HoreTore & Beirut alluded, the whole thing is rather silly.

Of course, I don't get why Dante ranks #3 on his list of great people of the past, frankly...or even in the top 10. All of a sudden people are talking about Dante again, I hadn't heard him spoken of for 20 years and now I hear of him everywhere. But I digress...

[Beirut]

Of course you can. My God man, what do you expect we over-fifties to do all day othwerwise? :shakes stick:

Curmudgeons is us.

[Skullheadhq]

Indeed.

Nostalgia is dangerous. We elevate what was once good to divine levels, and start seeing new things and creativity as dangerous.

Art is fundamentally about creating emotions in people, and of course, the art that makes us feel happy and good is what we enjoy the most. Take Lady GaGa, for example. I'm quite sure SkullheadHQ will dismiss her as trash, but her music has brought happiness and enjoyment to millions, if not billions. Every saturday night, people are happy and dancing while listening to her music. If you can't see that as a good thing, you've really detached yourself from the real world.

And don't come saying it's so easy to make pop music. There are millions of people trying to be pop stars, and only a handful make it. How many people tried to compose music in Mozart's day? A few thousands? The skill needed to make it today is much greater than the skill needed to make it before.

There's also the fact that we only remember the good stuff. They made a ton of crap before as well, but that's all forgotten, just like the crap today will be forgotten. But mozart and beethoven is still remembered, just like MJ and Madonna will still be remembered in 2211.

I was once like this too. I only listened to the guitar-heavy rock of the 60's and 70's, and despised everything modern. My eyes were shut, and I refused to see. But when I opened my eyes, I realized that there's just as much creativity in todays world, if not more. Music has evolved, and so should I.

Lady GaGa? Madonna? Michael Jackson? What is happening to the .Org? And if you think they're more than trash, you've really detached yourself from the real world. And just take the opposite of what billions think, and you've arrived at the truth, and if the people of 2211 remember these failures, then they're as worthless as the people of today, something which I don't hope for.

[Subotan]

Homerus, Vergilius, Dante, Machiavelli, Augustinus, Erasmus, Luther, Erico Caruso, Plato, Verdi, Mozart, Chopin etc. etc.

The only unifying themes between all of these that I can discern is that they are all dead, and have been for some time, and that there are no scientists/mathematicians/etc. amongst them.

Name one modern equivalent...

I already mentioned Murakami. If you want more authors, then both Iain (M.) Banks and Alan Moore are pioneers in their respective media. With regards to classical music, Steve Reich comes to mind instantly (Different Trains \m/ ). Seeing as you won't like that, here's something from a guy who has only been dead a few years. With regards to philosophy, Chomsky is an obvious choice (Even if his political musings are off the wall), as are people like A.C. Grayling etc.

True cultured-ness does not come from the exclusive adoration of the long dead, but from a combination of open-mindedness and an ability to disregard crap, old or new. For example, I like to listen to both Ludwig van Beethoven and Wolfgang Gartner - sometimes at the same time. To exclude your taste to either the historical or the modern is small-minded, and in the case of the former, the height of pretentiousness.

EDIT:

Lady GaGa? Madonna? Michael Jackson? What is happening to the .Org? And if you think they're more than trash, you've really detached yourself from the real world.

If anyone has detached themselves from the real world, it's you. Jackson will definitely be remembered in the future - how could the best selling artist of all time possibly be excluded from the history of music? And I say that as someone who loathes Jackson's music, as well as Madonna's (Gaga - not so much. Her music is quite fun when you're drunk.).

And just take the opposite of what billions think, and you've arrived at the truth

You're just a Hyper-Hipster, nothing more.

If the people of 2211 remember these failures, then they're as worthless as the people of today, something which I don't hope for.

Why should you care what they think if humanity is doomed to cultural death anyway?

[Beirut]

And just take the opposite of what billions think, and you've arrived at the truth, and if the people of 2211 remember these failures, then they're as worthless as the people of today, something which I don't hope for.

People will still be listening to Floyd in 2211.

It gives me hope for the future.

"...I'll see you on the dark side of the mooooon."