Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Populus Romanus]

Philosophy be damned, for now, we drink wish I was old enough to consume alcohol.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think the message of today is that those who'd have Osama for a martyr now know Uncle Sam will get them, no matter how far and how long they run.

I'm afraid that they are running towards the closest US embassy while carrying suicide vests.. If only someone else would have killed him. Then he would have been forgotten but now.. I'm not so sure..

[Askthepizzaguy]

There is no doubt about the evil behind this man. And there is no doubt that he deserved death. But can we really say 100% that we are cheering for his death out of a sense of justice for those innocents that were killed, or are we cheering that his blood has been spilled out of a sense of hatred and anger towards him, the same kind of anger and hatred that fueled his evil attack in the first place?

Yes.

I totally understand where you're coming from. I have long ago lost hatred and anger over this person, because I recognized how destructive it is.


As it stands, my position on the matter is the corpse should be given a proper Muslim burial, so as to prevent as much backlash as possible, hopefully sparing the life of even one single human being from the aftermath of this. Justice, has been served by his death. Vengeance has not, barbarism has not, and we can demonstrate that by remembering our priorities: We were after Bin Laden because we sought to protect life from his harm. We can commit him to the ground in a way that is not insulting to people, even if for me, the purpose will be the same.... to protect life from his harm. Not out of respect for him, but for innocent human life, that could be harmed if we directly incite hatred.

That's where my head is at. Level, clear, and compassionate. I seek no blood, no gore, no satisfying vengeance. I think a lot of people can feel the same way.

I can only speak for myself. But justice has been served now, and it would have been served had he been captured alive and he had been thrown in prison. The objective: remove his freedom to harm people. That's been accomplished. And that's what the victims of his cruelty would have demanded.

I feel very comfortable that the feelings I am feeling are not because of a satisfaction of blood lust. They are a "thank goodness it is over" kind of feeling. I have no vengeance in my heart.

[Warluster]

There is no doubt about the evil behind this man. And there is no doubt that he deserved death. But can we really say 100% that we are cheering for his death out of a sense of justice for those innocents that were killed, or are we cheering that his blood has been spilled out of a sense of hatred and anger towards him, the same kind of anger and hatred that fueled his evil attack in the first place?

I think the only way you can look at this situation is that yes, we are certainly cheering out of a combination of hatred and 'justice', which in this case this hatred is because he must be brought to justice for his crimes committed. His anger/hatred led to him ordering planes to fly into the heart of his perceived enemies, while the response was to simply kill the man responsible.

This hatred certainly does lead to a cycle of disaster... but there are always exceptions to the rule.

Edit: ATPG put it much simpler above... this is bringing the man to justice for what he has done.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Strike For The South]

Perhaps you two are right. But when but when I start getting floods of statuses on facebook about covering osama's body with pork and burying him in the foundation of the new freedom tower...it makes me worried about what we have become.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I hate the senseless destruction he has brought to the world. That is what I've always hated.

This person was a wrong-headed idealist who believed what he was doing was making the world a better place. And his opinion on what was justice, and what was right and what was wrong, was blindingly ignorant. Ignorance and the idea of crusading for justice is a recipe for great evil.

I hate what he's done. I think his head was screwed up. I think it is tragic what he chose to do with his life. His death, however, is only tragic because it had to come to this to put a stop to his destructive influence. I'm just at a place right now where hatred of people is not what I feel anymore, even sickos like this guy. Bad apples on the human family tree, rotten from the inside out, who might have had the potential to be a decent apple, had they made different choices or were not believers in such a destructive philosophy. I take humanity for what it is... good and bad. Humanity would only be rotten if folks like Bin Laden were not the exception, but the rule. How we react to folks like Bin Laden shows us for who we really are.

We can either be rotten right back, or be better.

Perhaps you two are right. But when but when I start getting floods of statuses on facebook about covering osama's body with pork and burying him in the foundation of the new freedom tower...it makes me worried about what we have become.

It's what we've always been, ACIN.

The difference is that only some of us feel that way, and we get over it. Humanity is maturing. That is why we're so concerned about getting Bin Laden and causing no civilian casualties if possible, or burying him in a way that prevents riots and death.

We are progressing. We're not saints. We're not there yet. Humanity has hope. It doesn't have perfection. But I am okay with that. If I were you, I'd feel hopeful, not worried.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Strike For The South]

The first step to commit atrocities is a refusal to understand what you are dealing with. Ignorance and intolerance to the Islamic aspect of Osama is a sign that is not healthy. That's all I am saying.

Yes, yes, good job on dressing up a Voltaire quote I'm sure I have a gold star here for you somewhere. Their are plenty of other places you can go play deep thinking college libreal. The reaction to this event is par for the human history course.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Strike For The South]

Lol, I'm not as educated you make me out to be. I didn't even know that was Voltaire.

Also, congrats on a lack of argument. It impresses me how your post marginalizes me and my "deep thinking" by simply stating that this is "par for the course" as if that excuses anything that might come about from this event. As far I know, channeling previous moments in history doesn't excuse or invalidate the concerns I have.

tl;dr Your cynicism annoys me when you try to pretend it is pragmatic. hmm, maybe I am a college liberal.

I've already posted my veiws on post 30

The kids on facebook puffing out their chests mean nothing, the proles now have a voice that went unheard for generations due to the lack of social media.

[PanzerJaeger]

I see. Blood lust is justified as long as it is for the right side...

Already a moral equivalency drawn between Americans and Osama bin Laden on page one. I guess it was to be expected, but I am still .

[Strike For The South]

Already a moral equivalency drawn between Americans and Osama bin Laden on page one. I guess it was to be expected, but I am still .

I am of the opinon we are better but am perplexed by the celebrating....DO I MAKE YOU CRY

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't have blood lust, nor do I think celebrating means you have blood lust.

I feel a sense of justice. And vengeance satisfied.

But I do not think it is bloodlust because my elation at his death comes from knowing it was just that he has died. Bloodlust cannot endure a decade. What remains is the grim celebration that justice was finally, after so many years, served.

CR

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[PanzerJaeger]

I am of the opinon we are better but am perplexed by the celebrating....DO I MAKE YOU CRY

If you cannot understand it, I don't know what to say.

[Populus Romanus]

What are we going to do with his body? That is the question that really has me hooked.

Also, the guy that shot him must be so pumped for the 50 million USD he is going to getting.

[Strike For The South]

If you cannot understand it, I don't know what to say.

I think everyone here is smart enough to realize Bin Laden was at best a figurehead in Global terror at this point

And all the cheerleading in the world won't change that

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, I suppose you are right. But humanity only matures when people like me ask seemingly ridiculous questions about what our motivations as a society actually are. After all, could you really make the argument about humanity maturing at the end of 1945?

I don't mind the questions. I just hope that you fully appreciate that people are not all at the same level of maturity, and that while the trend is toward the more intellectual, reasonable, and mature, there will be folks who are on the other end of the bell curve. They're part of our human family still. The objective is to continue to be better and better, so that whatever the bottom of the curve is, it too gets better and better. It's also possible to have differing opinions on the same issue and still be at the same maturity level.

Don't be discouraged by those who lag behind. They'll catch up, or their offspring will. The progress of humanity is irrevocable, the march towards enlightenment is unstoppable. Just remember that in our parents' lifetimes, and ours, a great leap forward has taken place regarding sexual and racial attitudes. In the past couple centuries we saw the end of slavery. Rights and freedoms have advanced substantially. Fret not about how far we still have to go, and rejoice in how far we have come, and remember that the steps we take rarely get retraced.

I am usually a rationally pessimistic guy, but I seriously see tremendous evidence that we have cause for optimism regarding our fellow man, and ourselves. And I am patient enough to wait for that which cannot be achieved by everyone today, as long as some of us achieve it, and soon.

Back to topic; worst example of humanity ends up dead as a result of his terrible actions. Reactions seem more mature than putting his head on a pike and parading him down Wall Street. Hyperbolic rhetoric from some, as expected, but so far, no rioting.

[ajaxfetish]

Well, I stopped expecting to hear this news years ago. I'm glad that the world's number one manhunt is finally over, and for the message it sends that we won't let up on something this important. Good work to Obama and US intelligence. I hope this will be a serious blow to AQ morale.

Ajax

[PanzerJaeger]

I think everyone here is smart enough to realize Bin Laden was at best a figurehead in Global terror at this point

And all the cheerleading in the world won't change that

I don't think the celebrating has anything to do with what he is, or was, today, but instead, what he put into motion 9 1/2 years ago.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Strike For The South]

I don't think the celebrating has anything to do with what he is, or was, today, but instead, what put into motion 9 1/2 years ago.

And what will still be in motion tmrw....get it now

Every time I read your views, I understand less and less why you roll your eyes at me when I talk about my concerns.

I'm complicated damnit

So in our pursuit of defeating terror and going after Osama, we have shed lots of innocent blood, spent more money than we had, and have continued to expand our empire which you think is a bad thing (obviously).

Correct

And then when I say I am worried about what this war and game of hide and go seek with Osama has brought about within us you go ahead and start yammering about how this is all to be expected. Why complain at all then?

Dehumanizing the enemy is the oldest trick in the book. Getting two different groups of poor people to kill one another for rich mens geopolitical interests has always required a bit of massaging. So in that sense it is to be expected that people would react in such in over the top way

I don't care about the mans humanity or all that post modern bull. I just weep people are this eaisly swayed by a body that changes nothing at this point. Bin Laden won this game when America sent troops into Iraq, killing him makes for a great headline and thats about it

[Fragony]

I think everyone here is smart enough to realize Bin Laden was at best a figurehead in Global terror at this point

And all the cheerleading in the world won't change that

True that, in the end it doesn't really matter. Good riddance but don't make him more important than he is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Dehumanizing the enemy is the oldest trick in the book. Getting two different groups of poor people to kill one another for rich mens geopolitical interests has always required a bit of massaging. So in that sense it is to be expected that people would react in such in over the top way

I don't care about the mans humanity or all that post modern bull. I just weep people are this eaisly swayed by a body that changes nothing at this point. Bin Laden won this game when America sent troops into Iraq, killing him makes for a great headline and thats about it

Well that is a good point. Maybe next time you could just kindly point that out instead of a rolling eyes emoticon?

[Banquo's Ghost]

It is .org custom to not speak disrespectfully of the dead until they are buried.

Yes it is.

However, we can allow some leeway in that rule in this instance, as we did in similar cases of wickedness brought to justice. However, may I remind all posters that this is NOT permission to descend into the more unpleasant depths of the human ability to gloat over the death of an enemy. Please everyone, think before posting.

Philosophical question for everyone:

Is it right to celebrate the death of a man who we hated because he celebrated death?

This is an excellent question (especially for the moderators of this forum).

Referencing this case, I would say that the execution of this man can be viewed from a utilitarian perspective and thus celebrated as a practical outcome. I am entirely opposed to capital punishment or extra-judicial executions. Nonetheless, I recognise that arresting and imprisoning bin Laden would have almost certainly cost many further lives as his followers tried over the years to make "statements" about his captivity. In addition, the United States today would not have been able to give him a fair trial - which most sadly of all, is bin Laden's ultimate victory (but can be reversed at any time with the right will). Therefore his death was practical.

I can celebrate the impressive intelligence operation that led to the execution. If only previous administrations had invested in the intelligence infrastructure and capability a long time ago, there would have been little need for all the invasions. Part of accepting the central role that intelligence plays in defeating terrorism is that occasionally the practical execution is necessary - and preserves lives (particularly those of civilians) more effectively than the blunt instruments of war. Morally, that is a pretty smelly compromise, but justifiable. Celebration of aught but the smooth practicality is however, a step too far, in my opinion.

Again in this example, one must recognise that bin Laden expected this moment for some time and probably welcomed it to some extent. We should not judge men like him by our own appreciation of the joys of life, simple joys that his wickedness denied to several thousand ordinary people who were like us. His single death can never atone for those thousands, or indeed the hundreds of thousands of other innocents who have been caught in the geo-political whirlwind he unleashed. My thoughts are with them, and only flickeringly on this evil corpse. One can only hope that his death may bring a sense of justice to the families across the world that he has left bereft - and that, to me, is the only real cause of celebration.

[PanzerJaeger]

And what will still be in motion tmrw....get it now

You said you were 'perplexed' by the celebrating. I'm trying to help you understand that it is about long-deferred justice for his many victims. I don't think anyone believes this will end Islamic terrorism, the war in Afghanistan, our involvement in Iraq and Libya, or even the al Qaeda organization.