just a comment about palanhx and cavalry

[Ichon]

By "running" I meant the full speed gallop you see in most films and games (like TW).

Panicked horses are less easy to control, not more.

Yes they would know their strength, which is why they wouldn't run full pelt into a group of 100 people who didn't move out the way.

No it doesn't because I never said the cavalry galloped into a charge.

I'm pretty sure the wedge formation didn't narrow to a single rider at it's tip, certainly later wedge formations never did this (the Byzantines used a 20 men tip for example).

Hmm...I think you have the wrong end of the stick here, again I never said that cavalry wouldn't charge into infantry, what I said was they wouldn't run into them at the speeds we see in TW games.

I seem to remember having this same conversation last time the subject was brought up and it turned out that we were basically saying the same thing.

The distinction is more fine than your initial statement appeared is all. I remember we talked about this in other thread but I didn't see we had been in agreement until now.

Panic stricken horses are more difficult to control directly but do follow the herd more readily at the same time. I didn't mean the lead rider as in 1 on the point but the person in command of the cavalry who was usually in the front ranks of the wedge somewhere.

The only part we might disagree about after reading your follow-up is that horses would veer from a group of people. If you mean by running as "gallop" then most horses unless in a stampede would try to avoid a group of people under its own inclination and only very few horses would obey a rider and smash into such a group. However if horses are moving towards a group of men at a slow canter I don't think there is any evidence they would try to avoid contact at all cost or completely balk. Especially if trained to do so under loud conditions.

Horses in that era probably weighed anywhere from 700-1200lbs, if were warhorses probably average around 1,000 though I've read of skeletons found that indicated up to 1300lbs though that would be exceptionally rare. So even saying 900lbs... plus 150lb rider and another 50lbs gear. 1100lbs of a single horse pushing against 150lb infantryman with 30lbs gear(less saddle etc). That would be at least 6 ranks in a single file to push back effectively against 1 horse, more likely more since as individuals over that distance they can't apply the force to push back as efficiently as the horse could push forward.

Horses might not be doing such math in their heads but I don't think they would be super intimidated just because men are standing in a group. That assumes horses are remarkably stupid they can't tell a solid object from a group of men.

Other than that point I think we definitely agree about how horse charge being portrayed in TW as a fast gallop in a long line typically is not very accurate. I don't know if there is a way to make wedge formation only available for charges or if that is the best solution but it could be part of a solution- even though the wedges are not quite right either it seems closer than a 2 rank deep elongated unit which does the most damage in a charge currently.

[Omegoa]

If you mean by running as "gallop" then most horses unless in a stampede would try to avoid a group of people under its own inclination and only very few horses would obey a rider and smash into such a group.

I think that's the point that both parties are advocating -- cavalry won't charge into a unit of men. A canter is a different matter altogether, and they probably wouldn't swerve from this slower approach though cavalry would be at a distinct disadvantage in direct melee.

[bobbin]

The only part we might disagree about after reading your follow-up is that horses would veer from a group of people. If you mean by running as "gallop" then most horses unless in a stampede would try to avoid a group of people under its own inclination and only very few horses would obey a rider and smash into such a group. However if horses are moving towards a group of men at a slow canter I don't think there is any evidence they would try to avoid contact at all cost or completely balk. Especially if trained to do so under loud conditions.

Yes at a canter they would most likely just plough right into them, you see police horses do this all the time during riots. A wall of spear points would obviously change their reaction though.

Other than that point I think we definitely agree about how horse charge being portrayed in TW as a fast gallop in a long line typically is not very accurate. I don't know if there is a way to make wedge formation only available for charges or if that is the best solution but it could be part of a solution- even though the wedges are not quite right either it seems closer than a 2 rank deep elongated unit which does the most damage in a charge currently.

Sadly there is not much we can do about it, we certainly can't mod when a formation is used. The wedge in TW games is pretty useless anyway, IIRC the whole formation has a tendency to stop ones the tip hits it's target.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Good thread. Basically, ancient cavalry goes for flanks or rear of the enemy - or goes for a gap in the front line.

Alexander's cavalry had great success against the Persians because a great number of the Persians were skirmishers, archers and slingers. And skirmishers will generally run away from an enemy charge, particularly a cavalry charge. And once the skirmishers start running, spearmen of low quality (poorly trained levies) may start running too. From there it's only a short step to the whole army panicking and fleeing for their lives.

Big, low quality armies are often a liability - more people on the battlefield only means that there is more people who might panic and run, spreading panic throughout the army. People have more in common with sheep than with wolves.

[HFox]

An interesting and parallel thread here which raises the issue of historical accounts of cavalry being 'over glossed' as well as some other interestingpoints.

http://www.investigations.4-lom.com/...charges-shock/

the link in the article is interesting.....highlighting how a 70-90lb woman can knock over a horse + jocket weighing 7-900 lbs travelling at 35 miles per hour.

If I had the option of being the armoured infantryman behind a shield or the rider cantering at him......I know my preference. :)

[HFox]

Now you've all got me reading!! :)

Found these two nice accounts of recent cavalry charges ....and quite heartwarming in a way

http://www.teoti.co.uk/military/9291...ry-charge.html
http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/news-ar...tish-army.html

[gamegeek2]

Sadly there is not much we can do about it, we certainly can't mod when a formation is used. The wedge in TW games is pretty useless anyway, IIRC the whole formation has a tendency to stop ones the tip hits it's target.

It does work when you target your charge at the unit behind it, then the wedge keeps going and goes through the enemy nicely.

[moonburn]

i use that trick to smash skirmishers slingers and others who would normally due to loose formation evade the charges but if you target the unit suporting them they get stuck beteween a shieldwall and a lance point :D