Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[Lemur]

Washington lied their tongues out. Anyone surprised?

In English, to "lie" means intentional deceit. And if this administration were lying, as others have pointed out, they would have stuck to their story until it was no longer tenable.

"Corrections," on the other hand, usually come quickly as new info is gained.

Which seems more likely?

You appear to be very ready to accept any negative theory about America without a great deal of critical examination. Blind spot, that. Best to check your mirrors and look out the rear window before backing up.

So Fox is crap and ABC, a liberal network is better? You make me laugh Lemur.

I'm glad I can provide you with amusement. You might want to look into this guy named Brian Ross, who is a fairly serious journalist. Note: by using the term "serious journalist," I mean that he has a factual, checkable track record for uncovering true things before other people, with little regard to who the facts help or hurt. The organization with the biggest beef against Ross? Not the Republican party. Toyota.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Crazy thread, some people really go out of their way to hate America...

All I will say is that I do not celebrate the death of OBL as a person. Because I never really see things in personal terms. He had his reasons for why he saw the world the way he did, just like we do. On the whole, he was a spoiled brat. Raised in privilege from day one, right to the end with his nine wives and massive complex (so much for hiding in the caves).

Something the more far-out western liberals tend to forget is that AQ are not the poor oppressed underdogs. They are often well (and western) educated, pretty wealthy... they represent the aspirations of the disaffected Arab middle-class. They cannot be compared to the likes of insurgents eg the Taliban, which really are just goatherders and what not. And lets not forget that the vast majority of AQ's victims were your typical oppressed Muslim peasant. For all the talk of Pakistan looking bad in this, we should remembers they have suffered far more at the hands of AQ than the west has.

So, what I do celebrate the death of OBL as the figurehead of Al-Qaeda. He may not have had a very active role in the organisation of late, but this is a huge symbolic victory over them, and sort of puts the icing on the cake after the Arab Spring, which itself did a lot to discredit AQ.

Also think I should add that IMO Obama did this whole thing perfectly. It was a good call not to bomb and kill civilians. And a good call with how he dealt with the body. Because whatever happened there would be conspiracy theories.

Should Osama have had a trial? Ideally, maybe so. But the reality is we were at war with him and his organisation. The Geneva Conventions don't take account for the nature of modern warfare, it isn't one country v another, nation states aren't billiard balls any more. If might not be official but we are at war with AQ as an organisation. So it is perfectly legitimate to hunt OBL down and shoot it out.

[gaelic cowboy]

Should Osama have had a trial?

I would say despite the fact it is plain as mud Osama did it, the facts to hand might have been a bit muddy to actually convict him of anything to do with Sep 11. I could imagine the trial dragging on for years with OBL spouting all sorts of rubbish everyday to the papers burnishing his credentials as the saviour of Islam, tis better he was topped however distasteful that may feel.

[Idaho]

I would say despite the fact it is plain as mud Osama did it, the facts to hand might have been a bit muddy to actually convict him of anything to do with Sep 11.

You see no potential discrapancy in these two statements? You should work at Guantanamo bay. The interrogators were told to see constant protestations of innocence as proof that they were terrorist masterminds schooled in anti-interrogation by AQ.... oh **** - it turns out some of them really were just shepherds

[gaelic cowboy]

You see no potential discrapancy in these two statements? You should work at Guantanamo bay. The interrogators were told to see constant protestations of innocence as proof that they were terrorist masterminds schooled in anti-interrogation by AQ.... oh **** - it turns out some of them really were just shepherds

No I see no discrepency at all cos he said himself he did Sep 11th in a video, but that does not prove he did it now does it.

[rajpoot]

I agree with the fact that taking OBL back to America for trial wouldn't have been wise.

I'm not versed with America's legal system, or whether it is as dysfunctional in certain situations as our own, but trying to prove a known terrorist is guilty in a court of law with full proceedings is a waste of time and resource.
As an example I'll cite the lone survivor of the group who attacked Bombay in 2008. Nearly three years later, that man is still alive behind bars, while his trial dragged on. In the meantime he's been getting three full meals a day inside his cell (which is more than what many millions in this country can manage). The cell itself was made specially, lest some of the other prisoners try and harm him, far as I can remember I actually read an article where it was claimed that an overpass was being made so that no road passed anywhere close to the prison compound where he was held. Now after his conviction from the High court, he has a chance to appeal to the Supreme court, where his case is likely to go on for several years again. And once irrevocably convicted, it will still take a few years for the sentence to actually be carried out.

So the point I'm basically trying to make is, that when you know a person is utterly guilty, no sort of logic can justify them being put on any sort of trial at all. Shot on sight and dumped into the sea is being kind to a man who was behind the death of thousands of innocent civilians.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[rajpoot]

Except the justification isn't on logic, it is on principle. Are we better than them? Yes. Why are we better? Because we are civilized men that don't massacre innocent people and we go out of our way to minimize death in our conflicts that are (ideally) justified in origin.

I do not subscribe to the idea that we can treat our enemies the way they treat us and somehow the taint will not cross over onto ourselves.

We are better, and we are better exactly due to the reason you state.
However executing someone who we know deserves it, without a trial, does not make us fall to their level.

Anyway what logic do we follow by putting a man on trial when we know he has committed a crime without a shadow of doubt? I'm not talking about some criminal who might've murdered people...What OBL did was on a far larger scale.

[Strike For The South]

Except the justification isn't on logic, it is on principle. Are we better than them? Yes. Why are we better? Because we are civilized men that don't massacre innocent people and we go out of our way to minimize death in our conflicts that are (ideally) justified in origin.

I do not subscribe to the idea that we can treat our enemies the way they treat us and somehow the taint will not cross over onto ourselves.

But we didn't use an indescriminate attack like say flying a 747 into a tall building

We put boots on the ground and things could've gone very badly

Now of course America is not always right but nor is it always wrong. Of course being the hegemon does mean we have some of the trappings that go against an idealized version of what America should be and their are numerous examples of America being a bully. However it seems some here wish to hold us to some redicolous standard which no nation can ever hope to aspire to. Sometimes principles have to be comprimised, no one likes and it should not become a habit but that is simply the nature of things.

[Subotan]

Washington lied their tongues out. Anyone surprised?

First of all, it seems like OBM did not hide behind a wife. Just propaganda to make him look cowardly.
Secondly, President Obama did not see when OBM got captured/killed because of a technical error (HP machines remember?).

As a side note, eye witness reports say OBM got captured and then assassinated, the source might of course lie. On the other hand, that source might lie, where as pentagon and washington have their pants on fire already.

Something is rotten here.

Osama's chums who were in the compound have far, far more to gain from muddying the waters by lying to the notoriously unreliable Pakistani newspapers than the Obama administration has to gain from providing a slightly misleading account of his death.

So Fox is crap and ABC, a liberal network is better? You make me laugh Lemur.

I'm glad I can provide you with amusement. You might want to look into this guy named Brian Ross, who is a fairly serious journalist. Note: by using the term "serious journalist," I mean that he has a factual, checkable track record for uncovering true things before other people, with little regard to who the facts help or hurt. The organization with the biggest beef against Ross? Not the Republican party. Toyota.

It's sad how critical journalism is considered "bias" by ignorant people. True bias lies in doing what does not deserve to be written, and writing what does not deserve to be read.


On a side note, it is positively heartwarming to see the same men who fill the streets demanding the death of anyone who dares to criticise law against blasphemy reduced to a solemn silence by the Bin Laden's death. We can all have good reason to be cheered by that, even if we consider finding joy in Bin Laden's death abhorrent.

[Lemur]

It's sad how critical journalism is considered "bias" by ignorant people.

I don't know that it's ignorance, rather an attempt to divide the world cleanly into "us" and "them." In other words, everyone is either with my cause or against me. Seems like a very depressing perspective, and doomed to error, not to mention alienating for everyone who doesn't agree with all of your views. A very smart American conservative noted that "somebody who agrees with you 80% of the time is an 80% friend not a 20% enemy." Modern rightwingers would do well to think on this.

In more important news, details are emerging about the counterterrorism dog hero, but still no photos. Pshaw!

Little is known about what may be the nation’s most courageous dog. Even its breed is the subject of great interest, although it was most likely a German shepherd or a Belgian Malinois, military sources say. [...]

The training of dogs in Navy Seal teams and other Special Operations units is shrouded in secrecy. Maj. Wes Ticer, a spokesman for United States Special Operations Command, said the dogs’ primary functions “are finding explosives and conducting searches and patrols.”

“Dogs are relied upon,” he continued, “to provide early warning for potential hazards, many times, saving the lives of the Special Operations Forces with whom they operate.”

Last year, the Seals bought four waterproof tactical vests for their dogs that featured infrared and night-vision cameras so that handlers — holding a three-inch monitor from as far as 1,000 yards away — could immediately see what the dogs were seeing. The vests, which come in coyote tan and camouflage, let handlers communicate with the dogs with a speaker, and the four together cost more than $86,000. Navy Seal teams have trained to parachute from great heights and deploy out of helicopters with dogs.

[Shibumi]

In English, to "lie" means intentional deceit. And if this administration were lying, as others have pointed out, they would have stuck to their story until it was no longer tenable.

"Corrections," on the other hand, usually come quickly as new info is gained.

Which seems more likely?

You appear to be very ready to accept any negative theory about America without a great deal of critical examination. Blind spot, that. Best to check your mirrors and look out the rear window before backing up.

OBL hid behind a woman?

Somewhere in the chain someone lied. Same with the photo. Interesting is to get to know where in the chain, or rather more importantly, why.

I am not saying that President Obama sat in a throne dictating "LIE ABOUT THIS YOU GRUNTS", but somewhere in the propaganda machine these lies came to be. Do you not find where and why to be interesting?

I think some here misunderstand my position. I am honestly glad OBL was assassinated, he was not a positive influence in this world. However, I will not celebrate someones death, just as I said initially. I see him as a rabid fox, needs to be killed, but it is nothing I will celebrate. I am more interested in curing the disease, than celebrating a dead rabid fox.

I also have a hard time accepting the propaganda machine, I will call bull when I see bull. I also want to know where in the chain the bull got started, and hang these people out.

Does this make me "oh so anti american"?

I think not. I see many a great thing in and with America. I believe in the American Dream. I just wish Americans would believe more in it, and uphold it. America can be better than this, should be better than this, and I hope will be better than this. I hope that one day the USA could get the next OBL because he gets sold out at once because people at large believe more in the American dream than some ****** up demagogue - instead of America having to send covert ops teams on assassination missions.

You can call me a weed smoking university hippie (was several years ago), but I believe in a better world, and I believe America is the leader of the powers that can make this happen.

So make it happen.

[Lemur]

Somewhere in the chain someone lied.

I'm not so sure about that. This admin had a choice: Get word out immediately or try to sit on a story that was already leaking. They chose to go public with most everything they knew, probably while the team was still being debriefed. OBL was armed and then he wasn't? Why the discrepancy? Well, now it looks as though OBL had armaments in the room and may have been going for them. Hence the confusion. OBL hid behind a woman and then he didn't? Looks now as though one of his nine wives was in the room and may have gotten in the way of a shot, deliberately or not. Hence confusion. The admin could have tried to sit on the details, but they chose to go public first and correct later.

Could this be some sort of mishandled psyop? I suppose, but I don't think it would play out the way it's going. A simple narrative would have been advanced and maintained for as long as possible. This smells more like early reporting of a breaking story, plus confusion and fog of war. Should the admin have waited on some of the details? Maybe. Maybe not.

You can call me a weed smoking university hippie

I was going to try to mix things up by claiming you were a telepathic dolphin, but okay.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not so sure about that. This admin had a choice: Get word out immediately or try to sit on a story that was already leaking. They chose to go public with most everything they knew, probably while the team was still being debriefed. OBL was armed and then he wasn't? Why the discrepancy? Well, now it looks as though OBL had armaments in the room and may have been going for them. Hence the confusion. OBL hid behind a woman and then he didn't? Looks now as though one of his nine wives was in the room and may have gotten in the way of a shot, deliberately or not. Hence confusion. The admin could have tried to sit on the details, but they chose to go public first and correct later.

Exactly. Some people here do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of after action reports. Combat operations are fast-paced, chaotic, and terrifying affairs, and there is often not much time to stop and analyze what just happened. In this case, the SEALs had only 40 minutes from the start of the operation to lift off, which included the initial combat sweep, the detention of the dozens of women and children within the compound, and the subsequent hardware sweep - oh and dealing with a malfunctioning chopper. They were pretty busy, to say the least.

Comparatively, the initial reports were actually far more accurate than one would expect. The big discrepancies:

Was he armed? - Well initial reports were yes, then no, and now it appears he was standing within arms reach of an AK47 and a Makarov.

Was the wife used as a human shield? - Initial reports said yes, then no, that she lunged towards the SEALs, and now the newest details claim he shoved the woman towards the SEALs - so yes again.

Was there a firefight? - Again, yes, then no, and now it appears that at least one of the couriers did fire at the SEALs.

Those are all, in fact, incredibly minor details to someone experienced in reading military AARs. I've recently been reading a collection of American military AARs from Normandy, and it is very common to read of engagements with dozens of Tiger tanks that I know never existed.

Events, units, equipment, and a hundred other little things in AARs diverge from the accepted historical record, from enemy accounts, and even from other AARs within the same unit on every side in every war. That doesn't mean the authors are all lying, it is just the nature of AARs - which are essentially attempts to translate incredibly chaotic events that just occurred into a sanitized, fact based summaries.

Lemur is right, Shibumi, you do seem latch on to any evil you can find in America and/or its actions, even if it doesn't exist. The administration didn't need to change its initial story at all, as none of us would have been the wiser. It is to their credit that they have come out to correct the record several times.

[Lemur]

Breaking commando dog news: Some of the SEAL dogs have titanium fangs. ZOMG CYBORG DEATH DOG ALLOY JAWS!

[Shibumi]

Exactly. Some people here do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of after action reports. Combat operations are fast-paced, chaotic, and terrifying affairs, and there is often not much time to stop and analyze what just happened. In this case, the SEALs had only 40 minutes from the start of the operation to lift off, which included the initial combat sweep, the detention of the dozens of women and children within the compound, and the subsequent hardware sweep - oh and dealing with a malfunctioning chopper. They were pretty busy, to say the least.

Comparatively, the initial reports were actually far more accurate than one would expect. The big discrepancies:

Was he armed? - Well initial reports were yes, then no, and now it appears he was standing within arms reach of an AK47 and a Makarov.

Was the wife used as a human shield? - Initial reports said yes, then no, that she lunged towards the SEALs, and now the newest details claim he shoved the woman towards the SEALs - so yes again.

Was there a firefight? - Again, yes, then no, and now it appears that at least one of the couriers did fire at the SEALs.

Those are all, in fact, incredibly minor details to someone experienced in reading military AARs. I've recently been reading a collection of American military AARs from Normandy, and it is very common to read of engagements with dozens of Tiger tanks that I know never existed.

Events, units, equipment, and a hundred other little things in AARs diverge from the accepted historical record, from enemy accounts, and even from other AARs within the same unit on every side in every war. That doesn't mean the authors are all lying, it is just the nature of AARs - which are essentially attempts to translate incredibly chaotic events that just occurred into a sanitized, fact based summaries.

Lemur is right, Shibumi, you do seem latch on to any evil you can find in America and/or its actions, even if it doesn't exist. The administration didn't need to change its initial story at all, as none of us would have been the wiser. It is to their credit that they have come out to correct the record several times.

Some people do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of an after action report? You do?

Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?

With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.

To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.

The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..


Lemur, I can assure you, somewhere someone put a spin on this. You would not have world media reporting false facts if not. Find the spinner, question the motives.

[Lemur]

Lemur, I can assure you, somewhere someone put a spin on this. You would not have world media reporting false facts if not. Find the spinner, question the motives.

Although I have been guilty of it myself on far too many occasions, you might not want to get too personal. I can say this as a sinner, 'cause I know the sin. Intimately.

Anyway, sure, people are spinning this. The administration wants to trumpet its good news, and who can blame them? The rightist media is doing its best to use this event to exonerate some of the more repugnant episodes of the GWOT; the leftist media is screaming that Obama is now "unbeatable," which is nonsense. Pakistan is paying lobbyists to pour oil on the rightly roiling waves in the US Congress. Everybody's got a chisel out, looking to see what chip of this can work for them. That's natural.

I don't understand, however, your injunction to "find the spinner." The admin shared intel, and some of it got corrected, sometimes with multiple variations. Things were probably confused. It's already been reported that the SEAL who double-tapped OBL had a broken camera helmet, so the higher-ups weren't sure what was happening.

High-tech is very different from infallible. First-tier combat units are still engaged in the confusing, messy, difficult stuff called "combat."

I dunno, where do you want to go with this? Give me the telepathic dolphin's point of view.

-edit-

P.S.: Awesome wardog slideshow. I am filled with canine-American pride.

[Shibumi]

Although I have been guilty of it myself on far too many occasions, you might not want to get too personal. I can say this as a sinner, 'cause I know the sin. Intimately.

Anyway, sure, people are spinning this. The administration wants to trumpet its good news, and who can blame them? The rightist media is doing its best to use this event to exonerate some of the more repugnant episodes of the GWOT; the leftist media is screaming that Obama is now "unbeatable," which is nonsense. Pakistan is paying lobbyists to pour oil on the rightly roiling waves in the US Congress. Everybody's got a chisel out, looking to see what chip of this can work for them. That's natural.

I don't understand, however, your injunction to "find the spinner." The admin shared intel, and some of it got corrected, sometimes with multiple variations. Things were probably confused. It's already been reported that the SEAL who double-tapped OBL had a broken camera helmet, so the higher-ups weren't sure what was happening.

High-tech is very different from infallible. First-tier combat units are still engaged in the confusing, messy, difficult stuff called "combat."

I dunno, where do you want to go with this? Give me the telepathic dolphin's point of view.

-edit-

P.S.: Awesome wardog slideshow. I am filled with canine-American pride.

A) The one who shot OBM had a broken camera. Yeah, he was alone there. I can assure you that there is not a chance what so ever that a soldier alone walked into the room. That is, unless the Rambo training finally paid off.

B) Why the "find the spinner" is important? Because someone somewhere tried to outright lie to the world at large. That should not go unnoticed? Do you really believe that the world news portraying OBL as hiding behind a woman was a honest mistake?

[PanzerJaeger]

Some people do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of an after action report? You do?

Yes.

Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?

Nope. Were you in the room when the great conspiracy was hatched to lie about minor details of this incident for one day and then come out the very next day and correct the record?

With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.

To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.

Interestingly, a careful analysis of military history will lead one to the realization that the primal emotions surrounding armed conflict that lead to errors in recollection are remarkably similar throughout time and technological advancement. You'll note that my entire point was that the inconsistencies in the original story were miniscule in comparison to other AARs that I have read, which is undoubtedly due to the SEAL's experience, level of training, and the technological monitoring capabilities employed.

Your insistence that every tiny detail of the operation must have been known from day one and therefore the United States government was obviously lying is a)naive or b)agenda driven.

The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..

Not at all. I simply agreed with Lemur and thought that I could add to his point with my own experience with AARs, as most people are not nerdy enough to spend their free time reading through thousands of them.

[ajaxfetish]

OBL hid behind a woman?

Somewhere in the chain someone lied. Same with the photo. Interesting is to get to know where in the chain, or rather more importantly, why.

Bear in mind that lying is not the only potential source of false information.

Ajax