Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bin Laden's death was the result of a "targeted killing." The validity of this concept is, itself, debated.

Bin Laden would not have been labeled "hors de combat" and hence a "protected person" under the tenets of the 4th geneva convention as there was no means by which to determine that he was unarmed.

[Lemur]

It's sad how critical journalism is considered "bias" by ignorant people.

I don't know that it's ignorance, rather an attempt to divide the world cleanly into "us" and "them." In other words, everyone is either with my cause or against me. Seems like a very depressing perspective, and doomed to error, not to mention alienating for everyone who doesn't agree with all of your views. A very smart American conservative noted that "somebody who agrees with you 80% of the time is an 80% friend not a 20% enemy." Modern rightwingers would do well to think on this.

In more important news, details are emerging about the counterterrorism dog hero, but still no photos. Pshaw!

Little is known about what may be the nation’s most courageous dog. Even its breed is the subject of great interest, although it was most likely a German shepherd or a Belgian Malinois, military sources say. [...]

The training of dogs in Navy Seal teams and other Special Operations units is shrouded in secrecy. Maj. Wes Ticer, a spokesman for United States Special Operations Command, said the dogs’ primary functions “are finding explosives and conducting searches and patrols.”

“Dogs are relied upon,” he continued, “to provide early warning for potential hazards, many times, saving the lives of the Special Operations Forces with whom they operate.”

Last year, the Seals bought four waterproof tactical vests for their dogs that featured infrared and night-vision cameras so that handlers — holding a three-inch monitor from as far as 1,000 yards away — could immediately see what the dogs were seeing. The vests, which come in coyote tan and camouflage, let handlers communicate with the dogs with a speaker, and the four together cost more than $86,000. Navy Seal teams have trained to parachute from great heights and deploy out of helicopters with dogs.

[Shibumi]

In English, to "lie" means intentional deceit. And if this administration were lying, as others have pointed out, they would have stuck to their story until it was no longer tenable.

"Corrections," on the other hand, usually come quickly as new info is gained.

Which seems more likely?

You appear to be very ready to accept any negative theory about America without a great deal of critical examination. Blind spot, that. Best to check your mirrors and look out the rear window before backing up.

OBL hid behind a woman?

Somewhere in the chain someone lied. Same with the photo. Interesting is to get to know where in the chain, or rather more importantly, why.

I am not saying that President Obama sat in a throne dictating "LIE ABOUT THIS YOU GRUNTS", but somewhere in the propaganda machine these lies came to be. Do you not find where and why to be interesting?

I think some here misunderstand my position. I am honestly glad OBL was assassinated, he was not a positive influence in this world. However, I will not celebrate someones death, just as I said initially. I see him as a rabid fox, needs to be killed, but it is nothing I will celebrate. I am more interested in curing the disease, than celebrating a dead rabid fox.

I also have a hard time accepting the propaganda machine, I will call bull when I see bull. I also want to know where in the chain the bull got started, and hang these people out.

Does this make me "oh so anti american"?

I think not. I see many a great thing in and with America. I believe in the American Dream. I just wish Americans would believe more in it, and uphold it. America can be better than this, should be better than this, and I hope will be better than this. I hope that one day the USA could get the next OBL because he gets sold out at once because people at large believe more in the American dream than some ****** up demagogue - instead of America having to send covert ops teams on assassination missions.

You can call me a weed smoking university hippie (was several years ago), but I believe in a better world, and I believe America is the leader of the powers that can make this happen.

So make it happen.

[jirisys]

The confirmation of the kill might have been slightly more difficult, but had the decision to bomb been taken, the necessity would have been to completely total the area. There will be conspiracy theorists and deniers whatever had been done. As with other attacks, DNA would have been taken at the scene of the bombing later on. A bombing mission was the safest, most reliable option (from the US point of view) but the president chose a course that minimised the loss of even more innocents.

Point two: the United States continues to bomb areas in Pakistan with drones and planes and has done for a long time. To my mind, the continuing slaughter of innocent Pakistanis in the North West, for entirely dubious reasons, is of far more concern than the execution of an evil man. Thus the worries the US may have had over bombing the compound were certainly not because of upsetting a "neutral" Pakistan.

There, I figured it out. Do I get a balloon?

Skeptics. We do not believe what the govt say, we don't make up explanations either.

Just, watch and call out the idiocy.

~Jirisys ()

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Much of what happened in the raid will not become common knowledge for decades, if ever. It is not in the interests of those tasked with such work to have their "sources and methods" scrutinized. This can only make such efforts more difficult in the future. As it was, this one took nearly ten years.

[Lemur]

Somewhere in the chain someone lied.

I'm not so sure about that. This admin had a choice: Get word out immediately or try to sit on a story that was already leaking. They chose to go public with most everything they knew, probably while the team was still being debriefed. OBL was armed and then he wasn't? Why the discrepancy? Well, now it looks as though OBL had armaments in the room and may have been going for them. Hence the confusion. OBL hid behind a woman and then he didn't? Looks now as though one of his nine wives was in the room and may have gotten in the way of a shot, deliberately or not. Hence confusion. The admin could have tried to sit on the details, but they chose to go public first and correct later.

Could this be some sort of mishandled psyop? I suppose, but I don't think it would play out the way it's going. A simple narrative would have been advanced and maintained for as long as possible. This smells more like early reporting of a breaking story, plus confusion and fog of war. Should the admin have waited on some of the details? Maybe. Maybe not.

You can call me a weed smoking university hippie

I was going to try to mix things up by claiming you were a telepathic dolphin, but okay.

[PanzerJaeger]

I'm not so sure about that. This admin had a choice: Get word out immediately or try to sit on a story that was already leaking. They chose to go public with most everything they knew, probably while the team was still being debriefed. OBL was armed and then he wasn't? Why the discrepancy? Well, now it looks as though OBL had armaments in the room and may have been going for them. Hence the confusion. OBL hid behind a woman and then he didn't? Looks now as though one of his nine wives was in the room and may have gotten in the way of a shot, deliberately or not. Hence confusion. The admin could have tried to sit on the details, but they chose to go public first and correct later.

Exactly. Some people here do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of after action reports. Combat operations are fast-paced, chaotic, and terrifying affairs, and there is often not much time to stop and analyze what just happened. In this case, the SEALs had only 40 minutes from the start of the operation to lift off, which included the initial combat sweep, the detention of the dozens of women and children within the compound, and the subsequent hardware sweep - oh and dealing with a malfunctioning chopper. They were pretty busy, to say the least.

Comparatively, the initial reports were actually far more accurate than one would expect. The big discrepancies:

Was he armed? - Well initial reports were yes, then no, and now it appears he was standing within arms reach of an AK47 and a Makarov.

Was the wife used as a human shield? - Initial reports said yes, then no, that she lunged towards the SEALs, and now the newest details claim he shoved the woman towards the SEALs - so yes again.

Was there a firefight? - Again, yes, then no, and now it appears that at least one of the couriers did fire at the SEALs.

Those are all, in fact, incredibly minor details to someone experienced in reading military AARs. I've recently been reading a collection of American military AARs from Normandy, and it is very common to read of engagements with dozens of Tiger tanks that I know never existed.

Events, units, equipment, and a hundred other little things in AARs diverge from the accepted historical record, from enemy accounts, and even from other AARs within the same unit on every side in every war. That doesn't mean the authors are all lying, it is just the nature of AARs - which are essentially attempts to translate incredibly chaotic events that just occurred into a sanitized, fact based summaries.

Lemur is right, Shibumi, you do seem latch on to any evil you can find in America and/or its actions, even if it doesn't exist. The administration didn't need to change its initial story at all, as none of us would have been the wiser. It is to their credit that they have come out to correct the record several times.

[Lemur]

Breaking commando dog news: Some of the SEAL dogs have titanium fangs. ZOMG CYBORG DEATH DOG ALLOY JAWS!

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[rajpoot]

Except the justification isn't on logic, it is on principle. Are we better than them? Yes. Why are we better? Because we are civilized men that don't massacre innocent people and we go out of our way to minimize death in our conflicts that are (ideally) justified in origin.

I do not subscribe to the idea that we can treat our enemies the way they treat us and somehow the taint will not cross over onto ourselves.

We are better, and we are better exactly due to the reason you state.
However executing someone who we know deserves it, without a trial, does not make us fall to their level.

Anyway what logic do we follow by putting a man on trial when we know he has committed a crime without a shadow of doubt? I'm not talking about some criminal who might've murdered people...What OBL did was on a far larger scale.

[Strike For The South]

Except the justification isn't on logic, it is on principle. Are we better than them? Yes. Why are we better? Because we are civilized men that don't massacre innocent people and we go out of our way to minimize death in our conflicts that are (ideally) justified in origin.

I do not subscribe to the idea that we can treat our enemies the way they treat us and somehow the taint will not cross over onto ourselves.

But we didn't use an indescriminate attack like say flying a 747 into a tall building

We put boots on the ground and things could've gone very badly

Now of course America is not always right but nor is it always wrong. Of course being the hegemon does mean we have some of the trappings that go against an idealized version of what America should be and their are numerous examples of America being a bully. However it seems some here wish to hold us to some redicolous standard which no nation can ever hope to aspire to. Sometimes principles have to be comprimised, no one likes and it should not become a habit but that is simply the nature of things.

[ajaxfetish]

OBL hid behind a woman?

Somewhere in the chain someone lied. Same with the photo. Interesting is to get to know where in the chain, or rather more importantly, why.

Bear in mind that lying is not the only potential source of false information.

Ajax

[Shibumi]

Exactly. Some people here do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of after action reports. Combat operations are fast-paced, chaotic, and terrifying affairs, and there is often not much time to stop and analyze what just happened. In this case, the SEALs had only 40 minutes from the start of the operation to lift off, which included the initial combat sweep, the detention of the dozens of women and children within the compound, and the subsequent hardware sweep - oh and dealing with a malfunctioning chopper. They were pretty busy, to say the least.

Comparatively, the initial reports were actually far more accurate than one would expect. The big discrepancies:

Was he armed? - Well initial reports were yes, then no, and now it appears he was standing within arms reach of an AK47 and a Makarov.

Was the wife used as a human shield? - Initial reports said yes, then no, that she lunged towards the SEALs, and now the newest details claim he shoved the woman towards the SEALs - so yes again.

Was there a firefight? - Again, yes, then no, and now it appears that at least one of the couriers did fire at the SEALs.

Those are all, in fact, incredibly minor details to someone experienced in reading military AARs. I've recently been reading a collection of American military AARs from Normandy, and it is very common to read of engagements with dozens of Tiger tanks that I know never existed.

Events, units, equipment, and a hundred other little things in AARs diverge from the accepted historical record, from enemy accounts, and even from other AARs within the same unit on every side in every war. That doesn't mean the authors are all lying, it is just the nature of AARs - which are essentially attempts to translate incredibly chaotic events that just occurred into a sanitized, fact based summaries.

Lemur is right, Shibumi, you do seem latch on to any evil you can find in America and/or its actions, even if it doesn't exist. The administration didn't need to change its initial story at all, as none of us would have been the wiser. It is to their credit that they have come out to correct the record several times.

Some people do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of an after action report? You do?

Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?

With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.

To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.

The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..


Lemur, I can assure you, somewhere someone put a spin on this. You would not have world media reporting false facts if not. Find the spinner, question the motives.

[Lemur]

Lemur, I can assure you, somewhere someone put a spin on this. You would not have world media reporting false facts if not. Find the spinner, question the motives.

Although I have been guilty of it myself on far too many occasions, you might not want to get too personal. I can say this as a sinner, 'cause I know the sin. Intimately.

Anyway, sure, people are spinning this. The administration wants to trumpet its good news, and who can blame them? The rightist media is doing its best to use this event to exonerate some of the more repugnant episodes of the GWOT; the leftist media is screaming that Obama is now "unbeatable," which is nonsense. Pakistan is paying lobbyists to pour oil on the rightly roiling waves in the US Congress. Everybody's got a chisel out, looking to see what chip of this can work for them. That's natural.

I don't understand, however, your injunction to "find the spinner." The admin shared intel, and some of it got corrected, sometimes with multiple variations. Things were probably confused. It's already been reported that the SEAL who double-tapped OBL had a broken camera helmet, so the higher-ups weren't sure what was happening.

High-tech is very different from infallible. First-tier combat units are still engaged in the confusing, messy, difficult stuff called "combat."

I dunno, where do you want to go with this? Give me the telepathic dolphin's point of view.

-edit-

P.S.: Awesome wardog slideshow. I am filled with canine-American pride.

[Shibumi]

Although I have been guilty of it myself on far too many occasions, you might not want to get too personal. I can say this as a sinner, 'cause I know the sin. Intimately.

Anyway, sure, people are spinning this. The administration wants to trumpet its good news, and who can blame them? The rightist media is doing its best to use this event to exonerate some of the more repugnant episodes of the GWOT; the leftist media is screaming that Obama is now "unbeatable," which is nonsense. Pakistan is paying lobbyists to pour oil on the rightly roiling waves in the US Congress. Everybody's got a chisel out, looking to see what chip of this can work for them. That's natural.

I don't understand, however, your injunction to "find the spinner." The admin shared intel, and some of it got corrected, sometimes with multiple variations. Things were probably confused. It's already been reported that the SEAL who double-tapped OBL had a broken camera helmet, so the higher-ups weren't sure what was happening.

High-tech is very different from infallible. First-tier combat units are still engaged in the confusing, messy, difficult stuff called "combat."

I dunno, where do you want to go with this? Give me the telepathic dolphin's point of view.

-edit-

P.S.: Awesome wardog slideshow. I am filled with canine-American pride.

A) The one who shot OBM had a broken camera. Yeah, he was alone there. I can assure you that there is not a chance what so ever that a soldier alone walked into the room. That is, unless the Rambo training finally paid off.

B) Why the "find the spinner" is important? Because someone somewhere tried to outright lie to the world at large. That should not go unnoticed? Do you really believe that the world news portraying OBL as hiding behind a woman was a honest mistake?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

A) The one who shot OBM had a broken camera. Yeah, he was alone there. I can assure you that there is not a chance what so ever that a soldier alone walked into the room. That is, unless the Rambo training finally paid off.

B) Why the "find the spinner" is important? Because someone somewhere tried to outright lie to the world at large. That should not go unnoticed? Do you really believe that the world news portraying OBL as hiding behind a woman was a honest mistake?

Ever seen/read testimony from eye witnesses in court? The accounts are often at odds with one another and with independently measurable facts. This is especially true in confusing/charged situations. Innacuracies -- even gross ones -- cannot be assumed to be the result of purposeful evasion or prevarication.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You know, if I was told 9 years ago that Osama Bin Laden would be killed, but I wouldn't get to see the photos, I would have said YES, that's one hell of an acceptable compromise.

People will always find something to complain about.

[ajaxfetish]

Why the "find the spinner" is important? Because someone somewhere tried to outright lie to the world at large.

First false information meant LIES!
Now spin means LIES!

If you want to accuse someone of lying, could you point out the lies, rather than the things that are not necessarily lies?

Ajax

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm only in this thread anymore for those awesome yankeenines.


Soon, Lemur will dig up pics of the dog scuba team.

[Husar]

We are better, and we are better exactly due to the reason you state.
However executing someone who we know deserves it, without a trial, does not make us fall to their level.

Anyway what logic do we follow by putting a man on trial when we know he has committed a crime without a shadow of doubt? I'm not talking about some criminal who might've murdered people...What OBL did was on a far larger scale.

But that's not in any of our laws.
If he was going for a weapon, fine, but if it was perfectly possible to arrest him and he was shot anyway out of pure revenge, then I think that's wrong.
I think it's wrong for a government that is supposed to uphold certain laws to just shoot someone because they think he is guilty.
Of course that's because I don't see the whole mess as a war.
There's even more to dragging him to court than that though, for one you absolutely break the person in many cases, you finally force them to think about what they have done, the atrocities they committed.
And you can break the myth surrounding a person, you can destroy all doubts about that person's guilt anyone may have had left, in many cases the whole glory of that person will fade when they sit there with their head lowered, a criminal, not a glorious leader of some resistance movement.
The assassination and the surrounding secrecy however make for all kinds of stories, half-truths and fabrications as can be seen in this very thread.
I'd even say nobody would care a lot about the raid if we were all discussing his trial in court now.
And concerning the time it takes to settle a case in court, I wouldn't use India as an example.

All in all, I'll rejoice once this terrorism madness stops but I don't see this guy's death as a big practical milestone, symbolic milestone perhaps, but that doesn't mean a whole lot as long as these decentralised structures keep killing people.

[Lemur]

Soon, Lemur will dig up pics of the dog scuba team.

No scuba dogs just yet, but I did find an awesome shot of a dog with an oxygen mask parachuting from 30k feet.

[PanzerJaeger]

Some people do not seem to have an understanding of the nature of an after action report? You do?

Yes.

Then you go on to explain how fast paced and action filled combat is. Been there?

Nope. Were you in the room when the great conspiracy was hatched to lie about minor details of this incident for one day and then come out the very next day and correct the record?

With all respect, but you do come off more like a history buff expert at handling combat in a simulated environment and used to bully teenagers in historical computer games than someone who has seen combat as of lately. When you tried to draw some kind of comparison between WW2 and now when it comes to after action reports, well, it kind of gave you away.

To compare a 19 year old storming a beach with thousand others in a country he only heard about in the news as "the devils land" to DEVGRU, one of the best trained units in the world, with helmet cameras and a legion of media analyzers and spin doctors to back them up (in an operation planned for months) - is faulty to say the least.

Interestingly, a careful analysis of military history will lead one to the realization that the primal emotions surrounding armed conflict that lead to errors in recollection are remarkably similar throughout time and technological advancement. You'll note that my entire point was that the inconsistencies in the original story were miniscule in comparison to other AARs that I have read, which is undoubtedly due to the SEAL's experience, level of training, and the technological monitoring capabilities employed.

Your insistence that every tiny detail of the operation must have been known from day one and therefore the United States government was obviously lying is a)naive or b)agenda driven.

The additional fact that you then see yourself to be able to fill some sort of role as umpire between me and Lemur is..

Not at all. I simply agreed with Lemur and thought that I could add to his point with my own experience with AARs, as most people are not nerdy enough to spend their free time reading through thousands of them.

[Louis VI the Fat]

No scuba dogs just yet, but I did find an awesome shot of a dog with an oxygen mask parachuting from 30k feet.

%&^@# !! Awesome!

[ajaxfetish]

Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war!

Ajax

[Papewaio]

Wet dog smells worse then spin.

As for defeating an idea, bullets are a poor cousin to a long protracted court case where the defendent gets treated well. Court cases that are factual, follow the rule of the law and give a fair trial are a very effective manner in stripping off any super villan halo.

As for the idea that unless naked the person is armed... does this become a recipricol standard? Is every Aussie nightclubber at a Bali night club now considered armed because they have shirts on? There are far reaching consequeces to even the smallest idea.

[Shibumi]

Ever seen/read testimony from eye witnesses in court? The accounts are often at odds with one another and with independently measurable facts. This is especially true in confusing/charged situations. Innacuracies -- even gross ones -- cannot be assumed to be the result of purposeful evasion or prevarication.

Ever seen a videotape/DVD? Or do you think they used 4 helicopters to fly in one guy with a broken helmet cam? How long time do you think it takes to debrief US most highly trained team, several days?

First false information meant LIES!
Now spin means LIES!

If you want to accuse someone of lying, could you point out the lies, rather than the things that are not necessarily lies?

Ajax

I thought I had pointed out the lies. I can assure you that there are more spin doctors involved in this operation than guys with guns.

As someone mentioned - Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Yet a majority of Fox viewers years afterwards thought it had. Spin? False info soon corrected? Lies? You must understand what the spin doctors understands, the majority of the population see a headline and take it to their hearts and minds, they do not go out on the internet and search for the truth.

All the world around headlines said OBL hid behind a woman, do you think this is because a reporter misheard a member of the assassination squad? Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?

PJ, I did not say that the US government was lying - that is your guess. I simply said that somewhere in the chain between operatives on the field and headlines around the world someone had an agenda.

As to your self-acclaimed experience of AARs from what I falsely or not assume is hobby reading, I really can not be bothered.

[ajaxfetish]

I thought I had pointed out the lies. I can assure you that there are more spin doctors involved in this operation than guys with guns.

As someone mentioned - Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Yet a majority of Fox viewers years afterwards thought it had. Spin? False info soon corrected? Lies? You must understand what the spin doctors understands, the majority of the population see a headline and take it to their hearts and minds, they do not go out on the internet and search for the truth.

All the world around headlines said OBL hid behind a woman, do you think this is because a reporter misheard a member of the assassination squad? Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?

I'm assuming miscommunication somewhere along the lines, possibly reinforced by the desire for a positive spin. That seems most consistent with the swift correction. I'm still not sure what lies you have identified, or who you think is doing the lying. Some amorphous 'them', apparently.

Ajax

[Shibumi]

I'm assuming miscommunication somewhere along the lines, possibly reinforced by the desire for a positive spin. That seems most consistent with the swift correction. I'm still not sure what lies you have identified, or who you think is doing the lying. Some amorphous 'them', apparently.

Ajax

I would suggest you re-read what I have written in my last posts.

What you deem apparent really has very little to do with what I have written.

Shibumi

[PanzerJaeger]

PJ, I did not say that the US government was lying - that is your guess. I simply said that somewhere in the chain between operatives on the field and headlines around the world someone had an agenda.

I'll refer you to your own post, #242.

Washington lied their tongues out. Anyone surprised?

From other posts, I can assume you're from somewhere in Scandinavia? In the English language, it is commonly understood that "Washington" implies the US government. Example.

Did you mean the state of Washington? The Washington DC city council? The Washington Post? George Washington?

As to your self-acclaimed experience of AARs from what I falsely or not assume is hobby reading, I really can not be bothered.

My post wasn't meant for your entertainment.

[gaelic cowboy]

Found a cool page all about the different countries that use War Dogs