Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[ajaxfetish]

I would suggest you re-read what I have written in my last posts.

What you deem apparent really has very little to do with what I have written.

Shibumi

Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?

. . .

somewhere in the chain between operatives on the field and headlines around the world someone had an agenda.

That sounds pretty amorphous to me. Care to make it more specific?

Ajax

[Greyblades]

As for the idea that unless naked the person is armed... does this become a recipricol standard? Is every Aussie nightclubber at a Bali night club now considered armed because they have shirts on? There are far reaching consequeces to even the smallest idea.

I would think it would be standard only when it comes to confirmed terrorists. The US armed forces aren't that stupid.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Lemur]

Ever seen a videotape/DVD? Or do you think they used 4 helicopters to fly in one guy with a broken helmet cam? How long time do you think it takes to debrief US most highly trained team, several days?

Actually, it's now reported that the soldiers' video feeds were killed during the raid. Looks like the team was doing as little broadcasting as possible. Radio silence and all of that. So unless their video was stored locally, there may be very limited footage of the raid itself.

Furthermore it appears that the helicopters were some sort of stealth technology, based on the fuselage, eyewitnesses and the rotor of the one that was trashed. Locals didn't hear much until the choppers were right on top of them. If you've been around normal helis, you know they are insanely loud.

Last interesting detail -- from when the raid began until the helis pulled out, power went out in the city and all cells died. Looks like our patriotic geeks have been up to good works. I'm beginning to appreciate what various SEALs mean when they keep talking about what a broad-based team effort this was.

[Papewaio]

I would think it would be standard only when it comes to confirmed terrorists. The US armed forces aren't that stupid.

Not the US forces, the ones we are fighting. Fallujah... did the mercs forget to take their shirts off, hence they were considered to being threats? Based on OBL being considered a threat if he wasn't playing for the skins team, it means that from now on anytime the enemy have one of our soliders who surrenders whilst dressed and within the same room as an unsecured firearm they are a threat and can be executed on the spot.

OBL was as a person a threat. His ideas were a much larger one. Much more gains would have made by capturing and sentencing him. Boring, unexciting, unhollywood, but damn effective.

Did OBL get what he deserved. Yeap. Was his death maximised for counter terrorist effect and wiping out his support base, nope a missed oppourtunity.

[drone]

Special Forces guys are notoriously secretive, this is the best pic available of the Bin Laden assault dog.

[rajpoot]

But that's not in any of our laws.
If he was going for a weapon, fine, but if it was perfectly possible to arrest him and he was shot anyway out of pure revenge, then I think that's wrong.
I think it's wrong for a government that is supposed to uphold certain laws to just shoot someone because they think he is guilty.
Of course that's because I don't see the whole mess as a war.
There's even more to dragging him to court than that though, for one you absolutely break the person in many cases, you finally force them to think about what they have done, the atrocities they committed.
And you can break the myth surrounding a person, you can destroy all doubts about that person's guilt anyone may have had left, in many cases the whole glory of that person will fade when they sit there with their head lowered, a criminal, not a glorious leader of some resistance movement.
The assassination and the surrounding secrecy however make for all kinds of stories, half-truths and fabrications as can be seen in this very thread.
I'd even say nobody would care a lot about the raid if we were all discussing his trial in court now.
And concerning the time it takes to settle a case in court, I wouldn't use India as an example.

All in all, I'll rejoice once this terrorism madness stops but I don't see this guy's death as a big practical milestone, symbolic milestone perhaps, but that doesn't mean a whole lot as long as these decentralised structures keep killing people.

Not pure revenge...justice. I think that is the point we differ on. The meaning of justice. While I understand that it would be more 'correct' for a country that is expected to uphold the laws, to follow them to the letter itself, but in some exceptional cases, in my opinion, going by the book is not the best way. Making a system too rigid and ultimate....any system...even the system of justice, is not the optimal way to go. There should always be some leeway that can be used in exceptional cases.
As for shaming OBL in the courts....Do you really think that would have happened? Do you really think that you can shame a fanatic about his fanaticism or dispel the aura his followers see? Capturing him alive and showing him in the courts as just another guilty criminal might have helped those who feared him get over their fear, but I doubt it would have done anything more for others.
Edit : Nearly 1500 days to 300
Can't say anything about that except for the fact that our system is badly I wish the man we're holding here was held there...or even better that he'd have never been held at all, in the first place.

Just because "we know" does not mean it is instantly excusable. You could say that since "we know", then we should still have the trial since there is 0% chance that he will be found not guilty. We still went out of our way to try and hang the Nazi's who we knew were terrible people. I don't see why we should not uphold that tradition since it is what we stand for. Like I said in the post you replied to, it isn't a matter of logic it is a matter of principle. We have noble principles and they do not. That is what makes us great and them monsters. So why do we abandon those principles at the moment when they should be applied most of all?

Then I misunderstood, I thought you said that what should be done should be backed by logic and not principles.... In your opinion America needs to show its nobility most of all when it is a question of a terrorist who had no honour. In my opinion displays of honour and nobility are best left to times when there is no risk of anything going sour. I don't think that the majority of Americans or the world think any less of your government now that Osama has been shot and not brought back to trial. The people who do not like and criticize it, are most probably the people who also think that Americans are as bad as terrorists because of the civilian casualties during the war...Very idealistic people..... And when idealists step down from their ivory towers onto the streets, they're apt to step straight into the gutter. I can't remember who said that.

[Fragony]

Special Forces guys are notoriously secretive, this is the best pic available of the Bin Laden assault dog.

Niqaab for men! Progress!

Or do you think that somewhere someone thought it would be a good idea to print this, not necessarily having honesty as top priority?

Because you are from Sweden you probably are unfamiliar with the concept free press, they can write what they want and if it turns out to be untrue they will rectify it. In the USA newspapers write newspapers not the government

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Fragony]

I agree that most of the world will not look down on us for celebrating his death.

Kinda wrong about that, it isn't that we don't understand it mind you

[rajpoot]

@acin

I understand what you're saying. I actually did not mean one needs to wait to show one's quality until absolutely nothing can go wrong...but atleast until a less high profile situation presents itself.
Anyhow. I believe it finally comes down to the individual opinion as to where one thinks a country can be a little slack in upholding its own principles and laws, so that the system does not become too rigid.......
We don't have anything to debate I guess.

[Beskar]

Al-Qaeda has confirmed the death of Osama Bin Laden in a posting on a jihadist website, saying his blood 'will not be wasted', reports say.

From BBC

[Lemur]

A little canine-American pride to get your day started right:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm only in this thread anymore for those awesome yankeenines.

Soon, Lemur will dig up pics of the dog scuba team.

Soon it will be Neodogs and Marauder suits....

[Louis VI the Fat]

Amphibious dogs...parachuting dogs...dogs jumping out of helicopters....ever never knew those things existed. If I were a terrorist I'd be getting real worried right about now!


Also: http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_by_the_fbi

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Brenus]

“Amphibious dogs...parachuting dogs...dogs jumping out of helicopters....ever never knew those things existed”
Louis, you should go and have a walk in a park or “à la campagne”, and you will probably see a dog swimming in a pound, river or other piece of water.
An amphibious dog that is just a military dog that swims.
As for the jumping one, just join the Army… Or find recruitment pamphlet “engagez vous, rengagez vous, vous verrez du pays” how they used to say. Probably a picture on it.
Joke a part, I remember my trainer when I was in the process/training to go through the door saying the difficulty to jump with a dog as the animal refuse (well, instinct) to do it. Having experimented this visceral fear myself and overcome it only by the sheer power of training and a dead brain (at that moment, thanks), I can’t really blame the dog.
I would have bite the adjudant if I could…

[PanzerJaeger]

Apparently, bin Laden was more involved in operational planning in recent years than many thought.

Bin Laden's leadership: The wealth of information pulled from bin Laden's compound has reinforced the strong role he played in planning and directing attacks by al-Qaida and its affiliates in Yemen and Somalia, senior U.S. officials said Friday.

And the data further demonstrate to the U.S. that top al-Qaida commanders and other key insurgents are scattered throughout Pakistan, not just in the rugged border areas, and are being supported and given sanctuary by Pakistanis, a senior defense official said.

U.S. counterterrorism officials have debated how big a role bin Laden and core al-Qaida leaders were playing in the attacks launched by affiliated terrorist groups, particularly al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, which is based in Yemen, and al-Shabab in Somalia.

Information gathered in the compound, officials said, strengthened beliefs that bin Laden was a lot more involved in directing al-Qaida personnel and operations than sometimes thought over the last decade. And it suggests bin Laden was "giving strategic direction" to al-Qaida affiliates in Somalia and Yemen, the defense official said.

Bin Laden's first priority, the official said, was his own security. But the data show that he was far more active in providing guidance and telling affiliated groups in Yemen and Somalia what they should or should not be doing.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity.

So maybe this is more than just as symbolic victory? One can hope.

[naut]

I see his DNA results are in: 24% cocoa, 52% coconut, 18% sugar and 6% milk.

Probably due to the bounty on his head.

[Fragony]

LOL@(naturally)England, pro Bin Laden protests, good job labour that's how you rub diversity in the noses of the right.

Ijjits

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL@(naturally)England, pro Bin Laden protests, good job labour that's how you rub diversity in the noses of the right.

Ijjits

Keep it classy, Mohamed.

[Fragony]

Keep it classy, Mohamed.

heh, gutmensch knows 100% sure that it's an enrichment of our culture, we can really learn from eachother and and

[Husar]

We can teach our kids to hate them!

[Fragony]

We can teach our kids to hate them!

Don't need us for that, comes kinda naturally where culture has been enriched and gutmensch who lives in a 100% white neighborhood furiously demands you know that everything is 100% superduperokidoki. Nasty for the ones who aren't into all that and only care about what's for dinner

[rory_20_uk]

I see his DNA results are in: 24% cocoa, 52% coconut, 18% sugar and 6% milk.

Probably due to the bounty on his head.

Groan...

OK, get your coat and leave

[Hax]

Holy , there were about 20 guys in that picture! IMPRISON MUSLIMS NAO!

[Fragony]

Holy , there were about 20 guys in that picture! IMPRISON MUSLIMS NAO!

Hundreds. [REMOVED COMMENT - COUNTARACH]. Islamphiles will never accept that islam cannot be changed, multiculturism would be a flawed concept, unbearable for the leftist church.

[Hax]

Fragony, the amount of neologisms you create is proportional to the amount of paranoid nonsense you post here.

Islamphiles will never accept that islam cannot be changed

Wow, and yet it has several times.

Hundreds.

Okay, let's say there are maybe, maybe 400 people protesting like this. In, for example, the Netherlands. Musllims constitute about 5% of the population (according the CBS/Statistics Netherlands). That's around 340.000 Muslims. 400 divided by 340.000 is about 0.0012 percent of the Dutch Muslim population.

Yep, there's a problem with Islam. Obviously. Statistics are just "Islamphile" propaganda!

[Louis VI the Fat]

Fragony, paranoid nonsense you post here.



In, for example, the Netherlands. Musllims constitute about 5% of the population (according the CBS/Statistics Netherlands). That's around 340.000 Muslims.

I'm afraid that is the 'Fragony Blindspot'.

The Netherlands has 16.5 million inhabitants. So five percent is not at all 340.000, but nearly triple that.


What one should do in Europe, is to take the most repeated estimate of amount of Muslims, and then triple it. Percentages are systematically and reflexively pushed downwards, in a mistaken sense of duty, to show that 'things are nowhere near as bad as the populists make them out to be'.
Me, I estimate the amount of 'Muslims' in the Netherlands at fifteen percent of the population, or just over two million. About half of these are religious, so one million Muslim believers.

Yep, there's a problem with Islam. Obviously. Statistics are just "Islamphile" propaganda!

Yes, there is a problem with Islam. And yes, statistics in Europe are subject to misplaced multicultural sensitivities.

[PanzerJaeger]

Okay, let's say there are maybe, maybe 400 people protesting like this. In, for example, the Netherlands. Musllims constitute about 5% of the population (according the CBS/Statistics Netherlands). That's around 340.000 Muslims. 400 divided by 340.000 is about 0.0012 percent of the Dutch Muslim population.

Yep, there's a problem with Islam. Obviously. Statistics are just "Islamphile" propaganda!

The number of people who can actually find the time and be bothered to show up on the streets in favor of a particular opinion or position is a tiny fraction of the number who actually support it.

[Idaho]

Hundreds. Nah just back to sandland for these folks attending, they can herd their wives and love their goats where they came from they don't belong here. Islamphiles will never accept that islam cannot be changed, multiculturism would be a flawed concept, unbearable for the leftist church.

Hundreds my eye. There are about 30 in that group that turn up to these things. 25 if it's raining. The only people who take them seriously are people like you and the media who know they can get some racy copy out of them.